12th Century Surcoats and painted helms

[Talan Gwyllt]

12th century marked the beginning of heraldry. Templars and other orders made use of it. This is nothing new. I would assume kingdoms and individual knights would use similar styles as well. Does this mean that those with a coat of arms would have a unique surcoat like we would see in later periods?

Often one of the neat things is about pennsic is walking around noticing the heraldry on shields and surcoats. Does this mean I could do it in a 12th century fasion?

What about construction? Linen surcoat in layers or a linen surcoat with a cotten backing for durability?

What kind of durability have people had with painted helms? How did you paint your helm?

Thoughts?

(I have an idea of a kit but need some advice to see if it's viable)

[Saint-Sever]

My understanding is that for the 12th century, only great lords and royalty displayed their heraldry.

We ordinary knights contented ourselves with displays of color and patterns taken from our devices, but not the actual devices themselves.

M.

[audax]

My understanding is that for the 12th century, only great lords and royalty displayed their heraldry.

We ordinary knights contented ourselves with displays of color and patterns taken from our devices, but not the actual devices themselves.

M.

Pretty much what Michael said. Surcote might not even be in the wearers heraldic colors and the heraldry might be displyed only as a device or an escutcheon on the surcote.

Of course this is the SCA so you can wear whatever pleases you.

[Corby de la Flamme]

I've been looking for documentation of a true "coat of arms" prior to 1215 for...well as long as I've known it was important, so 17 years or so.

Earliest documented actual heraldry goes to Geoffry Plantagenet's brass, circa 1143. It's on his shield only, nowhere else.

In the chronicles of the First Crusade no one's heraldry is mentioned.
In the chronicles of the Second Crusade the arms of great lords is mentioned.
In the chronicles of the third Crusade every noble's heraldry is mentioned.

That's why my arms are on my shield but my surcoats only have visual references to my arms, not the full "coat of arms."
For example.
Anyone with earlier documentation, please please correct me.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Sir Corby,

I don't know that I can remember ever seeing your shield, just about every pic I have seen of you is with a polearm in your hand or you on the sidelines watching. I would be interested in seeing your shield. I am considering moving my personna up to the Second Crusade and would like to see your interpretation.

Thorald

[Robert of Canterbury]

Thorald,

Here you are,

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=58966