Raito's Japanese Battle at Pennsic.

[Baron Alejandro]

I know we lost a lot of info in the dump, but I don't want this one to be forgotten. It was motivating me to make Japanese armour.

[Uneg]

Wait - how'd I miss hearing about this? Japanese battle? Versus whom? Mongols?

Either way, I'll have to make sure I make that one...

[Baron Alejandro]

Japanese only. No mongols. Very strict but REALLY COOL kit requirements. No messing about on this one. Think, Combat of the 30, but in Japanese.

[Uneg]

Hm. No plastic, I'm presuming?

Combat of the 30, Japanese style. Sounds pretty cool.

[Agnarr]

Hm. No plastic, I'm presuming?

Combat of the 30, Japanese style. Sounds pretty cool.

Some of the best Japanese armour i have seen is plastic. It Raitos rules, though,

[Philipe of Black Diamond]

I will not have a Japanese kit for this. But this battle is a great idea. I will be there with my camera to preserve the images that stand out.

[Murdock]

can i be a ninja???

[Philipe of Black Diamond]

can i be a ninja???

If its one lone ninja (you) You will kill everyone without armor and no one will see you do it. if there are other ninjas, you will all die a horrible death as cannon fodder.

[Leo Medii]

Hm. No plastic, I'm presuming?

I hope they allow hidden plastic because most Japanese armor will not pass SCA standards without a hidden low-profile elbow and knee set. I have them under my kote and you can't see them, but they are there, and they are plastic.
I'd fight without them, but it wouldn't pass inspection.

However, my wife did carve and got cast some awseome tsuba's for my weapons for the battle-


The 4 butterflies ones are for my Japanese weapons. The others are for next years Rondel daggers.

[Uneg]

Hm. No plastic, I'm presuming?

Combat of the 30, Japanese style. Sounds pretty cool.

Some of the best Japanese armour i have seen is plastic. It Raitos rules, though,

That's what I was wondering. I think my kit looks reasonable, but I know there are things wrong with it that need changing.

If it has to be steel, though - it'll have to wait until next time. Too many other projects this year.

edited to fix link (I hope)

[Effingham]

I think the general concensus is that it DEPENDS on the plastic. IE, if it looks like real Japanese armour, fine; if it looks like a barrel, BOOOOO.


Effingham

[raito]

Sorry Murdock, you'd never cut it as a ninja. Ninja have no honor (sez the samurai).

As for the original set of rules, it's here (but subject to change):

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45002

There's also a thread I did on some armour I made for a friend:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=47822

The more recent thread is currently recycled electrons. I did post that I'm currently waiting on a reply from the martial sub-deputy at Pennsic, though.

The idea was inspired by the 30, but don't put too much into that. It's not so much that I want this to be the same vibe, because the cultures are very different. I want this to scratch the same itch as the 30 does for the Mafioso. I want the high-end kits and weapons. I want a standard that pushes me to the ends of what I think I can do.

Plastic, as a material, is fine. Plastic as an excuse is not. Although urushi is not strictly a plastic, it is a polymer, as are most (all?) plastics. It has been my thinking that proper Japanese is polymer-coated metal or rawhide, and plastic does fit that bill, done properly.

The big things I'll be ignoring in kit this time around are gauntlets, though I warn you that I'm working on a high-def prototype that I hope will blow people's waraji off.

The big things I won't be ignoring are under armour clothing, footwear, and helmets. As well as the somewhat 'as-armoured' standard. You want to wear fabric kote? Not wear haidate? Grill? That's fine, but you'll suffer the consequences.

[Murdock]

Oh well, i had a ski mask and black Pajamas all set to go.


seriously though before the time warp i had posted a pic of something simpleish for a lower end Bushi

i was looking for a more substantial helmet than pictured

It looks relatively simple and i could hide a few current rig bits under the clothes


plus it's 14th century Japan cordin to the pic




I also thought it would look good in Black wite and gold

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Ok Effingham,

What will it take for me to borrow from you one of your starter Japanese kits for that battle?

I am juuust finishing a Norse set for general use and fighting with a round shield, but a Japanese battle sounds phenomenal and an SCA Yoroi expensive....

But then, Hagakure tells the story of a samurai whose army was surprised and joined battle without armor. He naturally died, but it wa a good death...


Niwodo-no, Ro Wan

[raito]

Murdock, everyone looks good in black white and gold (for the denser among you, look at Northshield's device.) What about that blue laced armour you sent the picture of before?

That's definitely lower end 14th century. We can do better. You are a Lordship and all.

Rowan, that guy died dumb. Then again, the Hagakure is as much propaganda as a manual.

Japanese armour to the level required for this battle isn't all that hard. As people are finding out with the 14th c. European, it's more a matter of pattern and line than expense.

A barrel isn't expensive. Lacing isn't expensive. Decent fabric isn't expensive. If you can make a spangen helm, a kabuto isn't expensive.

It's about how you put those things together and not make it look like suck-covered suck. It's about looking at the period examples and understanding the aesthetic.

That red and gold armour cost less than $200, probably a lot less. I'll be posting some articles on making inexpensive, but good looking yoroi soon (really, I promise, unless my wife keeps me too busy).

Guys, I wouldn't even let my present kit in, in its entirety. My clothes are good, and I can fake the footwear. The dou is fine and the helmet needs a new paint job. But my suneate aren't right, my kote aren't really armour, and I wear no sode (wrong for the rest of the armour). No haidate at all. So I have work to do, too.

Again, this is about doing it as right as we can. Within reach, but a stretch. I see a fair number of very nice pieces out there, but few who put all the pieces together. So let's do that this year.

[Iain (Bunny) Ruadh]

<snip>

I also thought it would look good in Black wite and gold

Hmmm .. wonder if they'd notice a bunch of 14th C. bushi standing off on the side eating pickeled herring, muttering about the traitorous pope and with large amounts of body hair .. hmmmm

[Murdock]

I lost that pic

i'm still loking for it

[Murdock]

i like these but i think they're 16th century still looking for the one i sent you

i think i found the page

now i can't remember which one it was

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Hey Hagakure is all true. I saw it in a TV show, so it must be true....


Rowan


PS: From Hagakure, CHapter 7.
(The last line is my excuse for looking shoddy. It has nothing to do with my poor taste or lack of money. It is all bushido.... right? )

Narutomi Hyogo said, "What is called winning is defeating one's allies. Defeating one's allies is defeating oneself, and defeating oneself is vigorously overcoming one's own body.

"It is as though a man were in the midst of ten thousand allies but not a one were following him. If one hasn't previously mastered his mind and body, he will not defeat the enemy.''

During the Shimabara Rebellion, his armor being still at the encampment, Shugyo Echizen no kami Tanenao participated in the fight dressed only in hakama and haori. It is said that he died in battle in this attire.

At the time of the attack on the castle at Shimabara, Tazaki Geki was wearing very resplendent armor. Lord Katsushige was not pleased by this, and after that every time he saw something showy he would say, "That's just like Geki's armor.''

In the light of this story, military armor and equipment that are showy can be seen as being weak and having no strength. By them one can see through the wearer's heart.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Raito,

There could be good Sake coming your way for useful guidance on an inexpensive kabuto and yoroi....

BTW for all, I will trade Mead for an SCA legal Kabuto that fits me. Other trades considered as well. I am open and have 8 months to see if I can make it to the Japanese battle at Pennsic...

Thanks!

Rowan of Needwood

A barrel isn't expensive. Lacing isn't expensive. Decent fabric isn't expensive. If you can make a spangen helm, a kabuto isn't expensive.

It's about how you put those things together and not make it look like suck-covered suck. It's about looking at the period examples and understanding the aesthetic.

That red and gold armour cost less than $200, probably a lot less. I'll be posting some articles on making inexpensive, but good looking yoroi soon (really, I promise, unless my wife keeps me too busy).

Guys, I wouldn't even let my present kit in, in its entirety. My clothes are good, and I can fake the footwear. The dou is fine and the helmet needs a new paint job. But my suneate aren't right, my kote aren't really armour, and I wear no sode (wrong for the rest of the armour). No haidate at all. So I have work to do, too.

Again, this is about doing it as right as we can. Within reach, but a stretch. I see a fair number of very nice pieces out there, but few who put all the pieces together. So let's do that this year.

[raito]

I've been corresponding with tlast on his kit. There's some nice bits in there, and though it needs some work, I don't see anything, other than the kusazuri, that need discarding. I hope he doesn't mind my distilling my comments here. Someone might find it useful.

He says he's wearing just kiahan and not suneate, though he has a pair that fit for an o-yoroi, and the kegutsu are spats. So he'll look fine from the knees down, if the suneate are as nicely done as the rest.

The haidate look very good, what we can see of them. Very nice indeed.

The kote look wrong, because they're close fitting without any plates or mail, but he says he had started plates for them, so all is well there if he finishes the project.

The kabuto is not the worst I've seen by a long shot. It has all the bits, but the shape is off. I probably wouldn't bounce it (I'd like a clearer picture), but it's off a bit. The chin is low, which a lot of people do. When making a kabuto, think armet, not great helm.

The sode are very nice, but they wouldn't go with an o-yoroi (which is what he was going for). Some more holes and a relace takes care of that problem.

The dou is a problem. It's very boxy (which is fine for an o-yoroi), but uncovered (which isn't). The kusazuri get wider at the bottom (good), but the lacing doesn't (bad). There's too many for an o-yoroi. The lacing to the waist doesn't fill the waist.

But it's relatively easy to fix! New kusazuri don't need to be mounted until they're finished, so there's no need to miss fighting. And an o-yoroi only needs 4. A leather cover is a bit more work. Perhaps a computer printer iron-on transfer kit might work. Or getting a custom ink stamp from an office supply store (I've done that for other things. I took in my graphic, and they made a stamp. It cost less than $20.) Yes, an o-yoroi is lames underneath, but that would be hidden behind the cover.

A couple weeks work, a bit more lacing, plastic, and leather, and it would look pretty sweet! What he has isn't bad, it just doesn't go quite far enough. It's not like he has to start over.

[Bernhart von Bruck]

Chello!

Just throwing this out there for a bit of levity. I won't be at Pennsic, but I love the idea of Japanese....course, these days, I'm headed for the mafioso look.

[img]http://www.geocities.com/lord_kjeran/Katana.jpg[/img]

Tony

[Effingham]

Just keep this in mind, folks:

[Uneg]

I've been corresponding with tlast on his kit...I hope he doesn't mind my distilling my comments here. Someone might find it useful.

I absolutely don't mind. Thank you for taking the time to correspond with me. I hope to be able to carve out the time needed to get it squared away in time for Pennsic. It wasn't on my list of projects for this year, but it's early enough that I think it can be, now.

Thank you again.

---T

[Destichado]

Just keep this in mind, folks:

What a fascinating use for a temple sword.

[Baron Alejandro]

[raito]

OK, the battlefield scheduling guys got back to me. It turns out that (of course) they aren't taking reservations until the Crowns set to war points. Good news is that means that I haven't missed any deadlines or anything, and they know what I'm planning.

Slightly different subject...

I definitely plan on documenting the Raito Method of Japanese Armour. It'll likely end up some where on j-armour.com. But I've found that it doesn't work well on AA to point to posts elsewhere, and expect discussion on AA. That's what I'd prefer, though. So I need to figure out what to do.

[Baron Alejandro]

Sir,

How acceptable would you find it to have one of these -

[img]http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/DannyinTexas/Armor/40541966_o.jpg[/img]

planted over your standard-issue spun-top as a cosmetic solution?

Thanks.

A


p.s. - I am not planning on doing this for myself.

[raito]

Short answer: For the purposes of this battle, I would not consider it acceptable.

Long answer:
It's not that it isn't Japanese, because it is, but because it is generally accepted that armour of this sort was worn very late in the period by lower-class troops. As the battle I am proposing is classical in nature, only the more noble class ought to be represented.

Side notes:
In this way, Japan is rather like Europe. Both began with a small number of fierce, nearly uncontrolled warriors, progressed to small numbers of elite, noble, well-to-do warriors, and devolved into large numbers of easily-equipped, lower class soldiers (not to mention the rise of nationalism, the middle class, and civilian sword schools).

To allow this sort of armour would be similar (for those Occidentals reading) to allowing a common archer into the Combat Of The 30. The common soldier existed, but is inappropriate to these particular circumstances.

[Effingham]

Raito-dono --

Quick question on periodicity of armour.

Are (fancier) armours of the latter half of the 16th century permitted? If we limit armour to pre-1550, we're talking full lacing *everywhere* (and technically kozane construction), and that may be a bit prohibitive (either in the cost/time for lacing) and a bit daunting for folks.

Basically, is *any* armour suitable for a samurai of rank acceptable?


Effingham

[raito]

Any armour for a samurai pre-1600 (and I bet Kieran's is fine, though he calls it 1601) is fine.

Sugake? Sure.
Okegawa? Sure.
Mogame? Sure.

All that stuff.

Jingasa? Nope.
Hara-ate? Nope.
Tatami-do? Nope.

You called it right, Master Eff. Requiring all kozane kebiki all the time would have the one guy with the right armour awfully lonely. Heck, my 'method' is for solid lames.

I'm actually hoping to see a variety of armour out there. As I've said, my head knows that there's a lot of diffderent types, even though, in my heart, miles of lacing makes a samurai. But bring on those other kits!

[raito]

OK guys, the request is in to the Pennsic Battlefield scheduler guy (Gilebert). And looks like I'm on the hook. I'm thnking that it might be well to find another captain for this. Any takers? It would keep me form making all the decisions on kit.

I'm further thinking that the sides will be nominally red and white, as the original battle I did for WW was somewhat Taira and Minamoto.

[Leo Medii]

I would like to participate.

[Nissan Maxima]

I am willing to help, I am thinking I may be be with the red side.

[raito]

Nissan, d'ya think? I'm figuring probably Yama Kaminari is going to be on that side, too. I'm willing to take the white. So, if you want to lead the red, and figure you can judge kit, you've got it.