A Dagger for the mid 14thC gentleman

Andrew McKinnon · Post by **Andrew McKinnon** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:12 pm

Is the Basilard Dagger the most appropriate for an english knight circa 1340-1350. I would wear it with appropriate soft kit.

(Edited cause I am a silly bugger and put 13thC. Agh. I am very sleepy)

Comments please =)

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:24 pm

Uh, 13th century is 1200-1299. I believe you mean 14th century.

Andrew McKinnon · Post by **Andrew McKinnon** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:27 pm

Yes I am a silly bugger. 14thC is exactly what I meant to say!!

Oopsie =(

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:38 pm

i thought that was a bit later like 15th i could be wrong

The rondel is common, i wear a cruciform hilted dagger.

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:17 pm

Ifn I'm thinking correctly, the basellard dates back into the 13C. There was a discussion earlier last year and someone posted some extant examples and some were from that century...I believe thier is an thread at My Armoury.com about them.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:39 am

Two burghers from c. 1385 with rather large baselard and bollock knife--

http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/images/KingsSombourne.jpg

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:58 am

Here's the mid 13th century baselard from the Edward the Confessor, Ee.3.59, available online:

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:11 pm

I usually think "germanic" when I think about basilards. Initially the Edward the Confessor pic could be a loose representation of a rondel dagger/knife.
If the artists had included dots for riveting the scales or had made the handle less square, I would be even more inclined to believe that it is a basilard. But with as square as the handle looks, it could be interpreted as a rondel.
Similarly, England is synonymous with bollard daggers (bollocks you say?), and rondels cover probably the greatest period of dating and geographic use.
-Cian
(of course, I also usually think of Germanic when I see acanthus dagging on clothing or klapvisors. and they were most likely followed as an international trend....just because you wear Italian shoes, doesn't make you Italian. right?)

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:45 pm

I'm on my way out the door to go to work, but I'm certain I can find plenty of baselards behind purses in view for the mid 14th century in the Luttrell Psalter and the Bodley Romance of Alexander.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:33 pm

Ralph de Knevyton from 1370 has a baselard on his effigy and that is of english make. I am sure there are quite a few. They are found from a number of englihs finds as well. ANyone have the excavations of London handy? Pretty sure there are a few in the musem of london from digs there locally.

Baselards are fairly common in medieval written sources as well- mostly fines charged for fighting in towns from what I remember but in every town I have studied baselards are a fairly standard weapon, even more so than ballock or rondels in the records.

I'd say go with the baselard. It is a useful tool to haev about.

I am making a very nice rondel for myself as well as a very large baselard which I have not decided if I should sharpen or if I should leave blunt... The rondel blade I got premade by a very good smith but I am making the baselard myself.

RPM

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:34 pm

Read this. Excellent article on the Ballock dagger.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:41 pm

Not to be pedantic, but centuries begin with a 1, and end with a 0 - there was no year zero, thus the 13th century is 1201-1300.

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:29 pm

No.

Baselards are an almost uniquely Swiss Confederation design.

Rondel, possibly ballock are much more likely.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:19 pm

No, they are not, that is just outright incorrect.

For god's sake, look at the thread - Randall has provided evidence from English sources for them in that context. Baselairds can be seen all OVER Western and Southern Europe. They were as common in Florence as they were in London, as they were in the Swiss Confederation, in their heyday in the late 13th and early 14th century, They are filthy in art, from Italy to France, and as I pointed out, Randall has pointed out English sources.

What the Swiss DID do, was hold on to the design for longer - the classic Baselaird went away, to be replaced by the "Holbein dagger", which is a descendant of the form - long after they were unfashionable elsewhere.

Andrew McKinnon · Post by **Andrew McKinnon** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:33 pm

I think the baselard has it then. Thanks for the advice gentlemen. Play nice now =).

Beaucoup de mercis

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:39 pm

The earliest depiction of the Basilard I know of is from a History of Outremer by William of Tyre circa 12th cent.

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:20 am

chef de chambre wrote:No, they are not, that is just outright incorrect.

For god's sake, look at the thread - Randall has provided evidence from English sources for them in that context. Baselairds can be seen all OVER Western and Southern Europe. They were as common in Florence as they were in London, as they were in the Swiss Confederation, in their heyday in the late 13th and early 14th century, They are filthy in art, from Italy to France, and as I pointed out, Randall has pointed out English sources.

What the Swiss DID do, was hold on to the design for longer - the classic Baselaird went away, to be replaced by the "Holbein dagger", which is a descendant of the form - long after they were unfashionable elsewhere.

I stand corrected, and apologize for my 13th-15th century ignorance.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:42 am

Chef is right.

BTW, I own the coolest ballock dagger in the SCA.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:29 am

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Chef is right.

BTW, I own the coolest ballock dagger in the SCA.

Oh yeah? Show me yours and I'll show you mine!

B. Fulton · Post by **B. Fulton** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:07 pm

Anyone know what would be appropriate daggerwise for 1150-1200ish? Crusader, English originally?