Splinted Limb Defenses

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

So I was poking around online, and was having trouble finding effigies or tombs that showed splinted leather limb defenses. Maille, polyens, full metal, no problem. Am I missing something, or can someone point me in the right direction? From what I can tell, I am looking for something in the 1290-1330 range (though a tighter date would be helpful if I am off).

[Cian of Storvik]

Mid 14th century 1340-1360 is where I'd be looking for splinted armour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Guen ... rzburg.jpg

-Cian

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Thanks for the link. Apparently I wasn't going far enough. Are those polyens under the skirt, or something else? I can't quite make them out.

[Cian of Storvik]

Supposedly splints date back to BC. But it appears to be one of those things that phases in and out of style. They may have actually had splinted armors throughout the middle ages, but you don't really see it in effigy except around Crecy time period (and usually it's riveted cuisses that imply splints).

The knees look like soupcans with fluting in them. But anyones guess is better then mine.
-Cian

[Ceddie]

from:
http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20cen ... armour.htm

Splints are evident on queses
Roger de Kerdiston, died 1337
John de Cobham, died 1354
greaves
Thomas Cheyne 1368
I don’t see any for arms.


but that is just one source.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Thanks guys. So far the one that Cian posted is pretty much what I would be going with. Is this the era of the top, back, or rounded top bascinet/cervielle?Are there ones with faceplates as opposed to the greathelms over the top? If so, what kinds (center-hinge, side hinged, klap or houndskull)?

Starting to look into the design of a secondary kit, and have the limb defenses pretty much fleshed out in my mind. Just trying now to match the correct body armour and helm to the (already decided) splinted arms/legs, along with figuring out what the actual cops would be.

[Cian of Storvik]

Here's a good article on the progression of the 14th century bascinet. It's a little tricky to follow because it jumps back and forth a bit in the discussion.

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_bascinet.html

It also doesn't appear to mention the short period around 1350 when some bascinets had side/ear mounted pivoting visors that made it look like a sugarloaf from the front or distance. (or perhaps the author doesn't really consider these to be a true bascinet)

I think the klapvisor doesn't appear until late 1370's at the earliest. A pig face is probably not any earlier.
-Cian

[Alcyoneus]

There are some examples in Migration Era armor, and you can find some in Rene's Tourney Book c1450. There are also other examples in art around that date, or later.

[Galfrid atte grene]

It also doesn't appear to mention the short period around 1350 when some bascinets had side/ear mounted pivoting visors that made it look like a sugarloaf from the front or distance.

Do you happen to have a photo of this design, or a source I could find it in? Or is it literally a sugarloaf visor on a bascinet?

[Cian of Storvik]

I think there were illuminations posted but were whiped in the hard drive crash.
I'll do some looking and let you know.
-Cian

[elden]

Two effigies I've photographed are here

Both are later than what you're looking for though. Checked the Manesse? I can't recall any splints in, but it's in your period. The *sigh* Osprey German Armies book for the period might have a few more too.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Elden thanks for the link. That gives me colors to put to the Guenther effigy. What is he wearing underneath for body armour (or is he)?

[audax]

Oswyn, are you leaving the 12th century? Say it isn't so, man.

[Magnus The Black]

Two effigies I've photographed are here

Both are later than what you're looking for though. Checked the Manesse? I can't recall any splints in, but it's in your period. The *sigh* Osprey German Armies book for the period might have a few more too.

Dude those pics are awesome. I will refer to those the next time I re-do my splinted harness.

[elden]

Elden thanks for the link. That gives me colors to put to the Guenther effigy. What is he wearing underneath for body armour (or is he)?

You're welcome. My guess is a coat of plates, but there's no evidence on the effigy that I've found.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

No, I aint leaving. This kit is going to be a long-term work in progress. Just had a crazy idea of doing splinted green leather with blackened rondels/polyens, as a second suit, both when I get time, and to increase the spiffy-ness value. Get a green/black brocade as the over-layer for the body armour.

Still leaving the majority of my spending in the 12th century. The biggest difference being I can make most of the patterns for the WIP, but I cant make a hauberk. That and I end up with patterns to use for others who want stuff in trade.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

www.gothiceye.com

Sir Roger de Kerdeston (d.1337)

Ralph, Lord Stafford c.1347

unknown Tewkesbury Abbey c.1365

Sir Humphrey Littlebury c.1365

Sir Thomas de Cobham (d.1367)

Sir Thomas Cheyne (d.1368)

Sir Miles Stapleton & Joan Ingham c.1365

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

I looked at those before posting the initial question. It seems like almost none of them look like they have splinted defenses, but more solid plate defenses. Am I missing something?

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

All of them have at least splinted cuisses.

[Kilkenny]

I looked at those before posting the initial question. It seems like almost none of them look like they have splinted defenses, but more solid plate defenses. Am I missing something?

Oswyn, I'm not being snide, but what do you expect to see as a representation of splinted limb defenses ?

As noted, each of the listed effigies shows cuisses with studs, commonly understood to be evidence that there are splints behind the cuisse being held in place by those studs. A couple of the effigies listed also show greaves with both a pattern of vertical lines and studs, which again are commonly understood to represent a splinted defense.

Generally, if a piece looks like it has a distribution of rivets that doesn't appear to relate to hinges and or straps, I interpret this to mean the rivets are holding something else in place, such as the plates of a COP, Corrazina or Brigandine, or reinforcing splints behind leather on limb defences.

YMMV, and certainly there are some differences in how images are interpreted. It seems, from your comments, that the reason you don't see effigies with splinted limb protection is that you are interpreting the images differently than many of us.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I am trying to find effigies, illuminations, etc. with both arm and legs having splinted leather protection. Preferably for almost all of the coverage as opposed to plate.

Kilkenny, I was looking at the vambrace/rebrace and shynbald. I wasnt necessarily looking at the cuisses in those pictures. I am interpreting them in the same way you are, just looking for a more overall look to the kit. I was trying to go with the "find an effigy and do IT", like I had heard more of the 14th century guys were doing, so I dont accidentally add something from a different location, or something like that. Guess I should have been more specific.

[Kilkenny]

Gotcha. You're having trouble finding effigies with *all* splinted limb armour. Yep, that's a bit harder.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I will check my books and see if I can dig up anything....

[RandallMoffett]

Closest I could help is are Buchard von Steinberg 1379, who strangely has splints on all limbs but cuisses. Kaiser Gunther von Schwartzburg 1349- all splints limbs. In England Sir Miles Stapleton, 1380, has full splinted legs. If you really want full splints you may many to look into german effigies. I know of none in England through all the 14th. There are probably more complete effigies in german ones but this is all I could find on a quick look. I do not have an electronic copy of Miles's effigy so you will have to google it.

RPM

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Gunther von Schwarzburg - 1349 effigy (yes he has tri-creased polyens under the cotte - also note the studded foot defense, instead of maille sabatons)



From what I have been able to find, the splinted defenses were more popular in Eastern Europe, particularly Germany. Several sources indicate it was in use there until around 1380.

[Graham Ashford]

Hello all,

I missed this thread, thanks to Oswyn for pointing me in the correct direction. Here's my original question:

I'm designing some splinted arms and legs for a friend who is looking to recreate a northern European look from between 1345 - 1375.

I am struggling to find any decent references/images of the armour. I have a few but wondered whether or not anyone had any images tucked away that they might share?

Durin my own searches I came across the picture of Guenther von Schwarzburg shown above, but since finding him in the effigies database, the illlustration above seems to owe more to other effigies than Guenther as his limb defences seem almost rubbed to nothing in the original effigy, or is that simply the quality of image available to me? Otherwise he is near perfect!

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... hwarzburg/

[white mountain armoury]

Cathedral of Our Lady of Strasbourg has relief sculptures showing soldiers with splinted limb defences, circa 1345.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Elden had pics up and has rehosted them here. This seem to definatively show limb defenses due to the coloration.

Edited: Sorry, wrong link. Corrected now.

[Graham Ashford]

Oswyn

Thanks for the link, that is perfect!

Kind regards

Graham