IWTB a 1350s -1375 Ghanaian Warrior

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RecklessAgony
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IWTB a 1350s -1375 Ghanaian Warrior

Post by RecklessAgony »

Im done
Last edited by RecklessAgony on Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Brynjolfr Hrafnsson »

I admittedly know very little about the slave trade as it relates to Africa during the Middle Ages. I am a bit more schooled when it comes to the Roman slave trade, and what comes after the Middle Ages, but not really during.

The European slave trade to Africa didn't really seem to take off until the late 1400s, that is to say the slave trade I think of regarding slave ships and the like, though the slave trade thrived in Africa, obviously, for thousands of years before that.

I would agree with Irish, that you might want to look to earlier an period persona. The Arabs were very active in acquiring slaves, and made concerted efforts at gathering and trading slaves up and down the coast and interior of Africa.

It would not be much of a stretch to tie your Ghana persona to a man taken captive by Arab slavers, then caught up in the mess of one of the Crusades (pick the one that best suits your armor and garb desires). He could then retain his African ties, being in the Holy Land during the Crusades, while at the same time, having access to the European styles that interest you.

Food for thought, don't be discouraged. The need to be strictly European in the SCA seems largely a paper tiger, to me, since we have a lot of samurai running around, and Spartans and early Imperial Romans and a good many others. There is a room for a Ghana warrior too, I expect.
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Post by InsaneIrish »

RecklessAgony wrote:well im sorry it sounds like a movie but it trully did happen and many african soldiers had nothing to return to in many parts of africa
You changed your story line on your original post. So, now my first 2 points are moot.


My last statement still rings true though. You might be better served by going earlier period. Either way, as an African/Ghannen(sp?) in europe, you more than likely would not be wearing conventional Ghanna garb and would not be using Ghannan weapons and armour. Not unless you were part of a security escort to Ghannan nobility or some kind of embassador. Even then it would be more ceremonial than practical.

Just trying to help.
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(on Pennsic) I know that movie. It is the 13th warrior. A bunch of guys in armour that doesn't match itself or anybody elses, go on a trip and argue and get drunk and get laid and then fight Tuchux.
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Post by Brynjolfr Hrafnsson »

I don't think either Irish or I meant to come off as rude, I hope that we didn't. Your persona could be the Elven Prince of the Redwoods, and it wouldn't bother me any. People do what they want to do and that's cool.

That said, you came here asking for help, and people gave it. It might seems like we are being cruel, critical or obstructive, (at the risk of speaking for Irish a moment here--he can beat me with a stick if I am wrong) but you asked for help in constructing a persona based around a the unconventional (for SCA anyway) persona of an African warrior from Ghana.

I *totally* understand the desire to tap into your ancestry for your persona. That is what drew me to the Viking age Norse persona. But if you come here asking for help putting your persona idea into an accurate historical context, you have to be willing to accept that what you are shooting for might not be 100% accurate.

In the end you need to do what is fun for you. Take what you like from us, and leave the rest. That said, don't take all criticism as a personal attack, because I can assure you it is not intended that way.
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Post by chef de chambre »

Portray a warrior of Ghana in Ghana, if you want to emphasize the African equipment.

Some people will bitch and moan about it, but you can do this accurately and well if you wish to. Nobody will enforce any rules of time and place against you, or they will have to toss out the Romans and Greeks, and Japanese. They let an Aztec run around, and even knighted him, for example.

Making up a fairy-tale to justify something so unlikely as the survival of equipment in the circumstances you present is a gross historical inaccuracy.

Be proud of your culture, portray your culture, but don't murder history in the process - Please. :)
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Post by Andrew Young »

One thing to consider Greg....protection.

I dont have a "persona"...Ive always been me, good old me.

I never understood the point of creating historical fiction, based on historical settings or not.

I love historical armour and clothing....and I like stuff from around 1400....and I get anal about details, but I find no need to create a toy box story for my stuff. See what Im driving at....I think your forcing the history a bit too much.

Protect yourelf first and foremost. Note that on the sca field you dont see a south american amazon naked tribesman with only an erect husk covering their penis for a good reason. They would be hurt.

This is a game of protection as well as history.

If you can seperate the two, you might do your body a favor.

And one last thing....like it or not, some types of arms and armour are clearly out matched when pitted against each other.

Aside from numerical figures of warriors....if you break it down mono y mono:
A wicker shield vs a british rifle arent exactly a fair match. ...nor is a spear and a rifle.

Wars are not won by armour and weapons alone. Strategy is as much a part of it. And on the opposite extreme, we dont have horses in our battles either...because even the best armoured up high carbon steel knight in armour doesnt stand much chance against a horse trampling him. ...or an elephant. In the same way a tribe of gaelic celts wouldnt statistically stand much of a chance against a well trained renaissance army with pikes and guns....

Protect yourself first.....worry about african history later. You cant always force a square peg into a round hole without some serious modification.
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Post by warc »

As some have said here, the slave trade by Arabs was alive and well in that period and going back centuries before then. There's nothing outlandish about a backstory concerning a free Ghanian mercenary...Numidians and other africans -were- being conscripted into arab armies of the period both as slaves and as general conscripted militia, serving throughout the muslim world and even in the Iberian peninsula. And while there may be little historical evidence of it happening its plausible that people from africa (especially christian africans) might have found service in frankish Crusader states. You could have been given freedom by a morally upright Saracen cavalier or been the prize of a fight between an arab cavalier and a frankish knight...Then got caught up in one of the Crusades as a freed, wandering, mercenary man-at-arms. Theres no reason not to believe during this process that you managed to retain your cultural identity to that extent that you had some of it recreated once you began serving a lord. The persona lends itself to north african muslim arms and armour, even Iberian. It all depends on where you want to go with it and what you have available. The Crusades were definitely a time of heavy social, cultural, and technological change and upheaval.

If you could post some pics of what you have put together so far, it might help myself or some others come up with possible historical background.
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Post by AriAnson »

That area was mostly part of the Malinese Empire in the time period you are thinking of. They were a wealthy and powerful state at the time, rich in gold and contained the legendary Unversity of Sankore. They weren't people running around half-naked, they likely wore clothes similar to the nomadic Saharan people of today - baggy loose garments and turban-like headwraps.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/wsem/hd_wsem.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofa_%28warrior%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_West_Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire
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Post by Milos N. »

Judging from the previous topic, I guess that you've done some research.
I can only give you general advice, and some ideas on how to integrate Ghanean gear into SCA, if you give me something to work with. Meanwhile, some general advice.

First thing you want to nail is
a) are you a Ghanaian solider IN Ghana, or in the vicinity, or
b) a freed slave, as in the 1 st post, or
c) most unlikely, allways free Gnanian who found his way to Europe.
I got lost a bit in this and previous thread, so I'm not sure if this is already covered. :oops:

Secondly, the gear.
Option a).
Get a good idea on how a Ghanian warrior looked like, and then try to hide every SCAisam that you can with clothes that go with the look. Cover the scull of the helm with Ghanean headgear (I have no idea how it looked in the middle ages, but I'm sure something could be done), or if it is not doable, just make the scull of the helm and visor-mask look like they were made together, as a single item.
Same goes to gorget, couters and poleyns. I doubt that anything could be done about gauntlets, but who knows! AND, get as much hidden armour as you can, under your clothes.


Option b)
Fairly simple, get European gear. Add a warrior mask and some things a man of the time would have been able to make himself and persuade local craftsmen to make.

Option c)
Keep a good portion of Ghanian gear, but add European/SW Mediterranean things to it. First thing that pops to my mind is clothes and some armour.
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Post by RecklessAgony »

well i went to a local fighters practice and did alot of homework with these uguys they, make all their own arms and armor, they have a great spirit about doing new things and i have a feeling it will all work out. After talking and brainstoarming with a few of the chaps, i myself noticed whole in the plot line of my persona....... Opt a) scrap the idea and be just me
Opt b) Call myself a Ghanaian Survivor of the Islamic raids who fled to europe to seek refuge from his home land and became a fighter for hire.... my friend Hienrich and i are trying to determine the best time frame for this i will update you all soon on my progress thanks again for making this an active thing
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Post by Eamonn MacCampbell »

I am trying to think what the art book I saw once...It showed a black French guy(well he was with the French) somewhere about the mid 1200's...Dressed exactly as the rest of the men at arms(Knights?) around him. The art work was from period...Just can't think of what the name is...

So, although I would say it was rare...It's does show that that some folks from Africa did come up that way.
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Post by audax »

One day, silly persona stories will die.

Oh whomai kidding, it'll never end. Thank God no one really cares what your persona story is.

Medieval Ghana (Wagadugu) was @500 miles NW of present Ghana. It was a powerful state until absorbed by Mali in the 13th cent. A Muslim leader named Sundiata ruled around 1240. Ghana was the name for the rulers in that area.

Ghana/Mali/Wagadugu was the seat of the Ashanti kingdom, which was powerful during much of the High Medieval period. The Ashanti migrated to present day Ghana after Wagadugu was absorbed by Mali and established a kingdom in that region. The slave trade on the Gold Coast was in African hands during this period, not European or Arab.

Why not just be a noble Ashanti warrior who has gone to sojourn in a European court?

Padded body armor seems to be the dominant form. Infantrymen are recorded wearing full armor.

So to do this for SCA: A padded gambeson with African trim, rigid plates over the kidneys. Hide your arm protection under the sleeves of the gambeson. Knee cops could easily be hidden under baggy pants (baggy pants were a sign of status, the greater the hero, the bigger the pants). Get a helm of Middle easter design and cover it with a cloth head wrap. Your gorget can be hidden under the collar of the gambeson or the lower edge of the head wrap.

Check out this fellow:
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Post by RecklessAgony »

some of the guys form the fighters grouop up here showed me a Norse viking book and in it it had a Shipp coverd in green scales.There were three men on deck, two large noble looking viking and an african. I don't know if he was painted as an african to symbolize dishonor or being an outcast....... it was a little inspirational though ...........
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Post by Amaris10 »

A place for design ideas,....
African Art (interesting mask ideas)
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/ARTHafrica.html

And this might help, too.
Art of Burkina Faso
http://www.uiowa.edu/~africart/Art%20of ... 0Faso.html

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Post by kelly powell »

If you went by your origin story, then you would be armed and armored with whatever they had on board the ship or what you could get in port....I could see maybe a mix of what muslim traders would of had (north african/egyptian/turkish style armor) along with a shield more in type with the indigenous people of the region.....For weapons...spear, sword..(see above: muslim trader) with hilt and scabbard altered to suit cultural taste...Did Ghanians use the knobkerry? If you could pull that off, it would look pretty cool....hand axe is pretty univeral....maybe a few thrust & throw javelins held in your shield hand.
Or have a hidden hard kit and cover it with national garb.
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Post by InsaneIrish »

nkante wrote:I am probably wrong, but weren't the Varenge (sp) Guard a group of Nordic mercs serving in the middle east? How believable is that a group of people from a cold snowy land would end up in the dessert?
The "Varangian Guard" made it to Constantinople. Hardly a desert.
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Quote: "Nissan Maxima"
(on Pennsic) I know that movie. It is the 13th warrior. A bunch of guys in armour that doesn't match itself or anybody elses, go on a trip and argue and get drunk and get laid and then fight Tuchux.
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Post by nkante »

Constantinople, Thank you. Who was the rulling party during that period. Islamic? Maybe that would explain my confusion. I believe Ghanian warrios wore mail, Arab, under padded coats. There were alot of poisin arrows. I have a pic of an african short sword that looks very Celtic, I'll have to look for it.
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Post by Effingham »

nkante wrote:Constantinople, Thank you. Who was the rulling party during that period. Islamic? Maybe that would explain my confusion.
Oh, Lordy, no. That was the Eastern Roman (a.k.a. Byzantine) Empire. Very Orthodox Christian.
I believe Ghanian warrios wore mail, Arab, under padded coats.
That gives you lots of leeway in terms of armour -- under the surcoat you can wear just about whatever you feel comfy (and safe) with. In practical terms, that means you *can* have two suits of armour for the price of one -- a fancy European tourney armour for demos and Pas d'Arms (yay 14 C Mafia!) and over that wear the padded coat that was the mark of the Ghanian/Arab warrior.

(I like multi tasking when feasible -- it's also a bit cheaper that way.)


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Post by chef de chambre »

ONe should also point out they (the Byzantines), were very Greek as well. In point of fact, a large chunk of Northern Asia Minor, and all of the land mass to the North, as well as the West of Costantinople was Ethincally and cullturally Greek, until conquered by the Ottoman Turks - Asia minor going by the late 14th century, and the rest holding out until the mid 15th century, with Constantinople falling in 1453.

Not Arab! (Neither are the Turks arabs), and not Islamic until conquered.
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Post by RecklessAgony »

Im not gonna lie i got a little teary looking at that its beautiful .........!!!!!!!!!!

Now to see how much it would cost to produce it LMAO ill never have that kind of money leather is one thing Metal Work i think not well not till i make alot more money
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Post by Robert of Canterbury »

do you want to look a little further north for the time you are considering?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire

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Post by Andrew Young »

Reckless

Ive been reorganizing my armour books (over 400 on armour alone and I forget what I have sometimes 8)

One of the books I need to bind, one is on my desk now.

Afrikanische Schilde: Graphic Art of the Black Continent.

You might be able to get via the library or interlibrary loan...

Also try http://www.worldcat.org/ its a huge database of books....its wonderful.
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Re: IWTB a 1350s -1375 Ghanaian Warrior

Post by Bob H »

RecklessAgony wrote:Im done
Please don't give up, there are people here with infinite patience and as long as you stay committed you'll get help refining your impression/persona.
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Post by Eamonn MacCampbell »

PM sent..
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Post by InsaneIrish »

RecklessAgony wrote:It wasnt even about my persona, that i said im done. Picture this, Its dinner and theres a huge ham on the table, and one of your geust has never had it. are you gonna pull out a chainsaw to trim the fat and give them a ham steak......? no you would even up with a plate of unappetizing gruel on your plate............ But if you pluued out your best french knife and carefully trimmed away the fat an d layed a nice thick ham steak on ther plate that was beaitufl in everyway it would but so delightfull for them.......
I am now totally confused...

what are you trying to say here?
NOT to mention whoever is was who took it upon themselves to go onto my myspace and leave me a revolting message about staying out of a sport i know nothing about. sorry for the run of sentences but its every and ive neeeded to vent this for a while ....... which ever coward from this board called me the vile names which where in the email......I hope we meet on the battle field one day and then you will find out how much of a NI**ER i really am.......

um, wow, holy crap dude. I hope you don't take my disagreement with your persona choice as racially motivated, because it most certainly is not. Some people in this world are small minded and pin headed. Unfortunately those are usually the ones with the biggest mouths.

Please take the noble route and ignore such low class coward. All they want is to drag you down into their mud. Pigs being pigs, your find out soon that wrestling with them only gets you both muddy and you find out the pig enjoys it.
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Quote: "Nissan Maxima"
(on Pennsic) I know that movie. It is the 13th warrior. A bunch of guys in armour that doesn't match itself or anybody elses, go on a trip and argue and get drunk and get laid and then fight Tuchux.
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Post by RecklessAgony »

trully friends my interest is not gone. My search has just lead me to outer sources. I found a great leather worker to help with my pieces to give them the chracter need for the persona of a ghanian traveler simple and percise ( i think i killed that word) no worries over the next few months i should have my kit together and will post pics and all that jazz when pieces arrive and such...
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Post by Effingham »

Be careful. We drool all over cool armour pics. Makes 'em all sticky ;)


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Post by RecklessAgony »

Just wanted to update some of those who where kind enough to be guiding lights... such as far ...... i have gotten very nice Bazubands from Draven with some Africana inspired tooling.. a leather (hidden chest and back made of scales) ugly as sin and older then i am... MY knees are currently being worked on. my gauntlets match my arms. and are in my eyes very nice... i will try to post the pics on here but i dont know how... my helmet.. is a kind of bastardized basinet. but sturdy and safe for the time being... most of my armor will be hidden for africans really didnt wear much...... as far as weapons i have a sheild coming from Lord Freiman of a Mali inspired design. and i am currently workin a prototype axe head...... looking for some knowledge on the axe head and how to construct it... well i thank you all and look forward to getting killed by you on the field sometime...

Always

Mountain En Musa

this is the link to my syspace photos...... my new armor and armor are there also....

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... mId=967745
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Post by RandallMoffett »

RA,

I cannot imagine anyone from the forum saying anything of that nature anywhere. I hope you do not get the impression that everyone here is like that.

Some more places to look perhaps. I'd look in Nicolle's ARms and Armour of the crusading Era, part two. It has an entire section on Christian Africa and another on Islamic Africa. It includes some good maps of African kingdoms/countries as well. Its worth a look if you can find it. Sadly the book can be expensive at times. The second one Nicolle's Medieval Warfare Source Book -Christian Europe and its Neighbours is also very good but does not cover African arms, armour and tactics as well as one would hope but the fact it does have information on it might be helpful in understanding the type of warfare your desired culture would use.

Some easier to find books that may or may not be of great use. I know most of the info from what I remember of them directly will not be of help as they cover all Islamic armies but many of the places are not far from the areas you were interested in and it might give an idea of the clothing and material culture you are looking for.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d ... MAA~per=41
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d ... MAA~per=41
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d ... MAA~per=41

Good luck with your research and getting your kit together!

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Post by RecklessAgony »

that whole ordeal is far behind... I have found some truly great help in this archive in understanding not only myself, but in understanding the true mentality of a reenactor. The passion to push for that button fob to complete the new gambeson. the right colors of a a heraldicly correct shield.. i mean six months ago when i started reading these stories and rants from fighters armorers, and SCA die hards. I took some things trully for granted. I am trying to become something more then the one weekend a month guy. I feel more alive when i fight. I feel so at ease in my dashiki drinking mead around the fire pit... I dont know its just i think im right for it and i think i belong.. I just want to show others the beauty of africa that they may never have seen through my interpretation of an armor kit. my way of being and way of life....

THank you for listening to that rant and god speed..
Always

Mountain En Musa
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Post by Darkwoulfe »

Hello fascinating dialog. Please post somd pics of your kit I was especially drooling over the warskirt posted on your myspace page I want to do both a steel rig for european fighting and a softer moslty leather(probably with some chain) rig for North African representation my persona would have fought in both places as a Moor displaced from Spain during the Reconquista.
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