Pimped out Bascinet-- Jack of Badsaddle effigy

[thomas penyngton]

Hi. I'm looking at this helm (taken from the Medieval Combat Society helm & armour pages), and wondering what all exactly is going on. Does anyone have more info about this Effigy?

listed as "possibly Jack of Badsaddle, died 1375"
http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/20 ... 5%2014.jpg
http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20helms.htm

I don't see any actual vervailles here, just an aventail edging with no particular visible connection to the bascinet itself. What's up there? Plenty of detail here, so if there were vervailles, they should show up.

is that edging made of leather? maybe metal? It looks like it has text running along it as decoration, with roped edging. Also a dagged bottom edge. Are the dags leather, or maybe fabric?

Also, a "leafy" decoration around the whole perimeter. Brasswork, I'd assume. And more, a decorative (brasswork?) strip across the front (over the eyes), with more text.

All in all, that's an impressively pimped out helm. From my very limited knowledge, it looks more like what's being done circa 1400. Do folks think it more likely the effigy was done around 1400, and reflects the style of that timeframe?

What do you usually call the vervaille strap/aventail edge, anyway? shouldn't it have a particular name?

Sorry, too many questions...
thomas p

[chef de chambre]

What you are seeing is a decorative latten border, that replaces the verveles, and probably supports the aventail itself, or covers the aventail, possibly attatched directly toi the helmet itself.

As per the brass/latten borders on the jugulers of mid 15th century Italian Armets, which held up the mail collars that were directlyu attatched to the armets.

[Talbot]

Hey Thomas,
I strongly suspect the effigy to be much later than 1375. He is probably circa 1400. The helm with the edging and his legs both suggest a later date. If we have more pics I could give you a more accurate answer.

[Strongbow]

What you are seeing is a decorative latten border, that replaces the verveles, and probably supports the aventail itself, or covers the aventail, possibly attatched directly toi the helmet itself.

As per the brass/latten borders on the jugulers of mid 15th century Italian Armets, which held up the mail collars that were directlyu attatched to the armets.

Isn't it possible that what we're seeing is a cover over the vervelles and aventail retaining strap? The reason I suspect that is because of the way the decorated section seems to end with the aventail, and there is a different sort of decoration across the brow. Also, the decorative bit seems slightly bulged as it might be if covering vervelles. The scalloped edging at the bottom looked more like leather than latten to me as well.

[Konstantin the Red]

The leather-cover idea seems plausible to me too. I'd sure love to get a good stab at what that inscription says. Maybe something from Ps. 18 or other warlike verses? A leather cover can take that shape. How exactly it would stay on is open to speculation: I speculate there's a backing. Whether there's a separate camail strap with the cover sandwiching it or if it's all a single piece doubled over along its length and the mail stitched to the inner half, I can't say.

The cusps-fleurs motif border I would take to be gilding.

[chef de chambre]

Doubtful (the bit carrying the inscription), because of the fluerons.

Like I said, it might be covering a standard arrangement, but I sincerely doubt it, because that would alter the profile substantially, making it thicker.

Besides, we have very clear examples of early 15th century mail suspension from latten borders.

[Strongbow]

Chef,

Can you post a pic of the later latten border? Maybe I'll have an "OOOHHHH" moment. 'Cause right now, I don't see why you're so certain. The fleurons are above the section with the aventail, as well as over the section across the brow. That would indicate to me the fleurons are part of what lies underneath the bludgy area. And the area adjacent to the aventail IS slightly buldged as if it's covering vervelles. also, the scalloped dagging at the bottom of the "cover" and overlapping the aventail doesn't look like something you'd do in latten. But I haven't seen the examples you mentioned, so maybe the similarity would strike me as obvious.

[chef de chambre]

Sorry Strongbow, I don't have a scanner.

Most earlier 15th century armets have these, and I would have thought most people here were familiar with them.

Maybe somebody could post some pictures from Bioccia?

[chef de chambre]

One can also reference art from the era of HRE Sigismund of Luxembourg, as one of the famous early 15th century Calvary's has an escort of men at arms, with several bascinets with aventails that have no verveles or leathers indicated, but latten borders (plain), round the edge of the bascinet, with the avenatils pendant from them.

[Strongbow]

Maybe I have pics of em that I didn't know what I was looking at. I'll dig through my stuff and see.

Thanks. This is a cool subject. And a neat effigy!

[per lillelund jensen]

Hey Chef i dont surpose you have a pic of an 15th.c armet with a lower edge of brass?? I was going through my folder with armets and i counted some 61 different armets from around the world and not one of them had any brass edges attached to them(unless some of the B&W images where), all in steel. Dont you think that what we see in art is gilded steel?

Per

[Mac]

The usual brow inscriptions of English effigies is an abbreviated form of the Titulus.
Iesus Nazerenus Rex Iudeorum

Since all that will not fit on the average brow, its usually something like...

Ies' Nazeren' R Iud '
Iesu' Naz' Rex I'


There are particular abbreviation marks in medieval Latin to indicate "..us",
and so forth.
Mac

[chef de chambre]

Hey Chef i dont surpose you have a pic of an 15th.c armet with a lower edge of brass?? I was going through my folder with armets and i counted some 61 different armets from around the world and not one of them had any brass edges attached to them(unless some of the B&W images where), all in steel. Dont you think that what we see in art is gilded steel?

Per

Possibly, probaly? I was sure one at least was in latten - you know, of course, what I am referring to, for suspending the mail curtain.

[per lillelund jensen]

Hi Chef yes i know what you meant, it just got me thinking that i actually couldenr remember one specific, so i checked in my image base, and i actually couldent find one out of about 60. It was not to be picky on you at all.

Per

[thomas penyngton]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was afraid that it may be significantly later than 1375... does the bascinet shape itself (looks like a back point, not a top point) help date things?

There are a number of effigies/brasses at http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20cen ... armour.htm from around 1400 that show the aventail lining/vervaille thing continue around above the eyes, sometimes the vervailles stop, sometimes they seem to continue all the way around. I don't see any that have a separate band that goes up to the cheeks, then another band over the eyes; that makes me think something else is going on here (compare w/John Bettesthorne 1398, Robert de Freville, died 1400, etc.). Maybe the Saint George (1370) has something like that, it's hard to tell.

The aventail lining does seem to be bulged, which would be odd for latten, I'd think. maybe that's an artifact of the photos, though. Do we have any examples of bascinets from c. 1400 that don't have vervailes at all?

Ultimately, I'm looking to do a 1370's helm, and am thinking about how to go a little farther in representation; I'd love to put a text on the aventail lining (or other decoration), but it's not clear that was done at all in England at that time; I don't see much decoration in the leather at all, though I'd assume it's at least colored.

thomas p

[Konstantin the Red]

Mac, such inscriptions are a new one on me. Where might I look for more of them, and what evidence might I find to see for myself about an INRI Titulus?

The inscription in the pic is much effaced, but it sounds like somewhere you've got a source with something much more legible. Brasses? Other effigies? Documentary?

[Mac]

Konstentin,
I think I've just sent you a PM , but I'm never quite sure about these things. If you get it, pleas tell me.
Mac

[Konstantin the Red]

I just came on about five minutes before posting this; the Archive doesn't seem to believe you sent anything, alas. But it's okay by me if you post the info publicly too.

[Andrew Young]

I just came on about five minutes before posting this; the Archive doesn't seem to believe you sent anything, alas. But it's okay by me if you post the info publicly too.

4/1/08 This could be unsettling: All his armour is really just imported from India.

[Mac]

Konstantin et al,

I turns out that I misremembered about the brow inscriptions. I had said that they were typically the Titulus (INRI), upon re-examination I see that the typical thing is the Holy Monogram (IHC) followed by Nazarenus (usually abbreviated). In at least one case, Nazarenus is followed by an R for Rex.

The following images are presented here with the kind permission of Dr. Toby Capwell.

They all are of English effigies from about 1390 to about 1410.

Mac

[Mac]

Some more...

[Mac]

and more...

[Mac]

three more..

[Mac]

and finally.


Thanks again to Dr. C for the use of his images.

[Murdock]

anyone have trasnlations of those?

[Talbot]

Thanks for the pics Mac! They are wonderful. Toby is a great resource.

anyone have trasnlations of those?

Yes--
IHC (sometimes IHS)
Nazarenus

Or

Jesus (first three letters of the name iota-eta-sigma or ΙΗΣ)
Nazarus

Or

Jesus Savior of Man (Iesus Hominum Salvator)
Nazarus

[Konstantin the Red]

My thanks to Mac and to Dr. Capwell; this was altogether new to me. Am I to gather this is a very good dating feature for either the effigy or of the armours the effigy represents to the decades 1390-1410, then?

[Kel Rekuta]

Mac, Doug...

Is this brow decoration peculiar to English effigies?
Is the "verveille cover" perhaps a stuffed band to help seat the great helm?

Is it likely that the decorative theme on the bascinet would be present elsewhere on the harness, such as on the breastplate?

So many new clues in a few photos... WOW!

[Strongbow]

Holy crap!

Thanks Mac!

They all have that kinda "buldgy" look too em. They REALLY look like Vervelle covers to me.

[Mac]

[quote="Kel Rekuta"]Mac, Doug...


Is the "verveille cover" perhaps a stuffed band to help seat the great helm?

Is it likely that the decorative theme on the bascinet would be present elsewhere on the harness, such as on the breastplate?



Kel,
I think the verveille covers are probably more decorative then functional. After all, the usual arrangement is sort of ugly. As to helping to seat a great helm; these basinets are all way too tall and pointy to ever have a helm over them.
The decoration on the brow does not appear elsewhere on the armor. On the other hand, the decoration on the vervelel covers is likely to be repeated in the usual places on the arms and legs.
Mac

[Mac]

My thanks to Mac and to Dr. Capwell; this was altogether new to me. Am I to gather this is a very good dating feature for either the effigy or of the armours the effigy represents to the decades 1390-1410, then?

Konstantin,
I think the idea was new to everyone, until Toby Capwell's grand photographic tour of English effigies. We all eagerly await his book...
This inscription continues to be used into the 1440s or even the 1450s.
I only posted examples where it accompanied a mail ventail because of the initial post.
Mac

[Kel Rekuta]

Kel,
I think the verveille covers are probably more decorative then functional. After all, the usual arrangement is sort of ugly. As to helping to seat a great helm; these basinets are all way too tall and pointy to ever have a helm over them.
Mac

Thanks for that. I thought that one must be too late for helms to still be in use. The orle is sort of a vestige of padded accessories for the tournament helm, isn't it? Perhaps the verveille cover and orle are stylish remnants of recently functional accessories? Toby's thesis illustrations highlighted numerous details like this, IIRC. It will be fantastic to see that work in published.

The question is - how would the decorative cover attach to the aventail suspension? Is it a sewn-on cover? Would it flip up to reveal the verveilles? How did they do that? Great discussion.

[Strongbow]

My thanks to Mac and to Dr. Capwell; this was altogether new to me. Am I to gather this is a very good dating feature for either the effigy or of the armours the effigy represents to the decades 1390-1410, then?

Konstantin,
I think the idea was new to everyone, until Toby Capwell's grand photographic tour of English effigies. We all eagerly await his book...
This inscription continues to be used into the 1440s or even the 1450s.
I only posted examples where it accompanied a mail ventail because of the initial post.
Mac

Is there any kind of consensus of the construction of these vervelles covers? My guess would have been leather.

[Strongbow]

Kel,
I think the verveille covers are probably more decorative then functional. After all, the usual arrangement is sort of ugly. As to helping to seat a great helm; these basinets are all way too tall and pointy to ever have a helm over them.
Mac

Thanks for that. I thought that one must be too late for helms to still be in use. The orle is sort of a vestige of padded accessories for the tournament helm, isn't it? Perhaps the verveille cover and orle are stylish remnants of recently functional accessories? Toby's thesis illustrations highlighted numerous details like this, IIRC. It will be fantastic to see that work in published.

The question is - how would the decorative cover attach to the aventail suspension? Is it a sewn-on cover? Would it flip up to reveal the verveilles? How did they do that? Great discussion.

I was thinking it would have to be semi-removable to allow removal of the aventail and cleaning of the bascinet itself.

If the cover were cuir boulli or metal, it would act as a protective cover for the the suspension cord itself. Don't know if the cord getting cut was ever actually a problem or not.

[Andrew Young]

Thanks for the pics Mac (and Dr C) !