To Block, or Not to Block...that is the Question!

[asbrand]

I'm fair certain this may have been discussed before, but I missed it, and my search-fu isn't turning up what I am curious about.

I've fought, on and off, for 24 years or so. I was taught, at an early SCA-age, to block with my basket hilt, and never gave it a second thought until I came here. Many of you abhor this practice, and I actually see your point.

However, herein lies my question: If is is a Bad Thing (tm) to block with a basket hilt, then if and/or when you fight with a weapon that requires gauntlets (greatsword, polearm, spear, or single sword w/o basket), and you take a hit on your gauntleted hand, do you "take the shot" and stop using that hand/arm? Or just shrug it off since hands aren't a legal SCA target?

Because, in my humble opinion, it makes no sense to get uppity about folks blocking shots with a basket hilt if you are not taking hand shots to your gauntleted hand. Now, if you *do* take it as a shot and forgo the use of that hand/arm, then your point has merit, and I'll actually agree with you.

Comments? Discussion? Tell me to bugger off???

[Graedwyn]

There is a big difference between
ignoring a blow that happens to land
on a non-legal target area, and intentionally
putting that non-legal target area in the
path of a blow.
Why not lift your leg and take a shot to
the thigh on your knee cop?

-Graedwyn

[Maeryk]

Well, I consider the top of my basket to be equivalent to the quillions on a "Real" sword. So I use it that way.

I don't _actively_ basket block, preferring instead to block with the blade above the basket, and fire around the incoming blade, if possible. But if I catch one on top of the basket, I have no compunction with moving it around.

I'm not talking "target substitution" which I _abhor_, I'm talking active, moving blocks which happen to end up somewhere around my basket hilts.

[asbrand]

I guess I wasn't clear enough...my fault.

I've seen *many* fighters who use gauntlets intentionally blocking with them. Like a greatsword fighter who blocks legshots with both quillions and his guantleted hands. Same with polearm fighters. They are intentionally blocking with the haft of the weapon, and more often than not blocking with their gauntlets. Because it is a natural reaction for us humans to try and block things with our hands. Or so it seems.

Also, going by what you just said...if I am using a basket hilt, and I am *attempting* to block with the blade of my sword...it's ok if I just ignore unintentional hits to the basket?

Just wanting to clarify / get opinions.

*EDIT* - my post was in response to Graedwyn.

[Maeryk]

I guess I wasn't clear enough...my fault.

I've seen *many* fighters who use gauntlets intentionally blocking with them. Like a greatsword fighter who blocks legshots with both quillions and his guantleted hands. Same with polearm fighters. They are intentionally blocking with the haft of the weapon, and more often than not blocking with their gauntlets. Because it is a natural reaction for us humans to try and block things with our hands. Or so it seems.

Also, going by what you just said...if I am using a basket hilt, and I am *attempting* to block with the blade of my sword...it's ok if I just ignore unintentional hits to the basket?

Just wanting to clarify / get opinions.

Yes, it's okay to ignore them. Hands are inviolate, and therefore, shots to them don't count.

Added to that, with where I keep _my_ hands, most of the shots that hit them wouldn't matter anyway.

Where it gets annoying for me, is guys with huge cuffs on their gauntlets, which end four inches up their forearm take shots to them (the cuffs) and say "hand!" or use the bell-flare to claim shots "didn't hit their arms" when you just dented the cuff. Yeah, it hit your arm, since you aren't even WEARING the damn gauntlets for combat convention anyway.

[asbrand]

Where it gets annoying for me, is guys with huge cuffs on their gauntlets, which end four inches up their forearm take shots to them (the cuffs) and say "hand!" or use the bell-flare to claim shots "didn't hit their arms" when you just dented the cuff. Yeah, it hit your arm, since you aren't even WEARING the damn gauntlets for combat convention anyway.

...that would be akin to building knee armour that extended midway up my thigh...and claiming you hit my knee. *grin*

Yeah, there you and I certainly do agree. Cheap and lame.

Hell, if you hit the cuff of my half gauntlets, I take it as an arm. I dunno about most people, but my "hand" begins at my wrist...not 4 inches up my forearm.

[Maeryk]

Where it gets annoying for me, is guys with huge cuffs on their gauntlets, which end four inches up their forearm take shots to them (the cuffs) and say "hand!" or use the bell-flare to claim shots "didn't hit their arms" when you just dented the cuff. Yeah, it hit your arm, since you aren't even WEARING the damn gauntlets for combat convention anyway.

...that would be akin to building knee armour that extended midway up my thigh...and claiming you hit my knee. *grin*

Yeah, there you and I certainly do agree. Cheap and lame.

Hell, if you hit the cuff of my half gauntlets, I take it as an arm. I dunno about most people, but my "hand" begins at my wrist...not 4 inches up my forearm.

Right. That is the cheesedick move that a lot of people get pissed at. And plenty of folks do it with baskets as well. Cleave their helm in, and if it went "Tink" on their basket, well, it just doesn't count.

I came in with an overhead shot with a pole on a guy.. hit his shield first, tore off the strap, drove the shield down, and hit him in the head hard enough that he had to stagger, shake his head, reset, and say "Shield!"

Uhhhh... no.

[olaf haraldson]

I occasionlly punch a shot out of the air without thinking... If I intentionally block it with my gauntlet, I take it as a good shot.

One problem I see with blocking with the basket, is that some take this as license to target the basket... not a good shot, but to eff up the geometry of the shot, or whatever. Then they do it to people not using baskets. And break my gauntlets... pissing me off.

[Maeryk]

I occasionlly punch a shot out of the air without thinking... If I intentionally block it with my gauntlet, I take it as a good shot.

One problem I see with blocking with the basket, is that some take this as license to target the basket... not a good shot, but to eff up the geometry of the shot, or whatever. Then they do it to people not using baskets. And break my gauntlets... pissing me off.

Why would you take a gauntlet shot as "good"? You cannot _have_ a good shot to the hand.

It's like a calf shot.. I don't care how hard they hit you.. it's not "good".. it might be "yield" as in "I can't stand up anymore", but it's not a good shot, as, per combat conventions, it's invulnerable.

[asbrand]

Why would you take a gauntlet shot as "good"? You cannot _have_ a good shot to the hand.

I think he means that he'll take it as a good shot because he blocked it "intentionally" with an illegal target. IE - target substitution.

So, to punish himself, he takes the shot as if it were indeed good.

That's how I read it.

[Maeryk]

Why would you take a gauntlet shot as "good"? You cannot _have_ a good shot to the hand.

I think he means that he'll take it as a good shot because he blocked it "intentionally" with an illegal target. IE - target substitution.

So, to punish himself, he takes the shot as if it were indeed good.

That's how I read it.

Ahh.

Well, my read on that is "my hand is still on the _HILT_ of my sword, which would have stopped the shot anyway"..

[Graedwyn]

[quote="asbrand"]

Also, going by what you just said...if I am using a basket hilt, and I am *attempting* to block with the blade of my sword...it's ok if I just ignore unintentional hits to the basket?

If it just happens to hit the basket hilt,
ignore it.
When I am fighting with a pole weapon,
shots sometimes land on my gauntlets.
I would never let the shot intentionally hit
them though. My gauntlets are good, but
I am not that stupid.

-Graedwyn

[Dagonet]

To channel Alejandro for a moment...

"Oh Boy!"

[Nissan Maxima]

My only problem with basket hilts is that they are totally gay unless you are some late period british isles type.

The hands are not target thing comes from the fact that we used to wear welding gloves as hand armour. No shit, welding gloves. If you hit someone in the hand you broke their fingers. I got seven of mine broken during this period of time. I had the coolest black suede welding gloves though. They were badass.

I am a hand blocking moron, but I don't do it on purpose. I would be happy to take it as a telling blow if it was the rules. I may start taking it as that anyway.

Now we have the capability of good hand armour but not the capability of a sane rule change. If I were SEM I'd do it.

[Trevor]

Well, it depends.

If you are looking for realism, then hand shots should count and baskets shouldn't be legal to block with. (You should probably allow full-ody targeting, too)

OTOH, if you're looking for "game balance", then getting hit in the hand results in the loss of an arm, which is silly enough as it is. So, hands shouldn't be legal targets.

For me, if it's legal to get hit in the hand and not take it, I won't.

If the hand''s a legal target, I will take it.

But, this is just another point where we are sacrificing realism for "playability".

[Kilkenny]

I'm fair certain this may have been discussed before, but I missed it, and my search-fu isn't turning up what I am curious about.

I've fought, on and off, for 24 years or so. I was taught, at an early SCA-age, to block with my basket hilt, and never gave it a second thought until I came here. Many of you abhor this practice, and I actually see your point.

However, herein lies my question: If is is a Bad Thing (tm) to block with a basket hilt, then if and/or when you fight with a weapon that requires gauntlets (greatsword, polearm, spear, or single sword w/o basket), and you take a hit on your gauntleted hand, do you "take the shot" and stop using that hand/arm? Or just shrug it off since hands aren't a legal SCA target?

Because, in my humble opinion, it makes no sense to get uppity about folks blocking shots with a basket hilt if you are not taking hand shots to your gauntleted hand. Now, if you *do* take it as a shot and forgo the use of that hand/arm, then your point has merit, and I'll actually agree with you.

Comments? Discussion? Tell me to bugger off???

I'm not going to read the thread, because this has all been discussed, to death, before

The deal, in its simplest terms is this, Blocking with your hand inside the basket hilt is target substitution - you are intentionally interposing your hand - an illegal target. Getting hit in the hand while fighting with a great weapon is almost invariably an unintentional thing on the part of the person getting hit. They would much prefer to have blocked with the haft of the polearm, and were most certainly not trying to put their hand in the way of the blow. Since they did not intentionally substitute the illegal target for the legal one, they've done nothing that warrants any penalty beyond the ouch of getting hit in the hand.

And there are a number of people who acknowledge blows as though the hands were a legal target. Their choice, nothing wrong with it. Also nothing wrong with not taking a blow to the hand, just like most of us don't take a blow to the shin.


Unless of course you just actively stuck that illegal target into the path of the weapon to prevent it hitting a legal target

[asbrand]

My only problem with basket hilts is that they are totally gay unless you are some late period british isles type.

Even though I use them, I totally agree.

However, being a somewhat early period Norse personna, I also wouldn't be wearing any type of steel gauntlets. Maybe a leather glove, if I was lucky.

However, since I certainly wouldn't fight bare-handed, regardless of the rules, and I have *yet* to find a gauntlet that wasn't totally out of period for me *and* protects as well as a basket hilt...I'll just stick with the basket hilt.

I likes my fingers. I type with 'em, ya know?

[asbrand]

I'm not going to read the thread, because this has all been discussed, to death, before

Getting hit in the hand while fighting with a great weapon is almost invariably an unintentional thing on the part of the person getting hit. They would much prefer to have blocked with the haft of the polearm, and were most certainly not trying to put their hand in the way of the blow. Since they did not intentionally substitute the illegal target for the legal one, they've done nothing that warrants any penalty beyond the ouch of getting hit in the hand.

Actually, later in the discussion, I did bring that up. I've seen people intentionally block with gauntleted hands. Most usually with a greatsword. They block legshots with 'em (while holding onto the sword, not just punchblocking with an empty hand).

I think we should just make the hand a legal target, and be done with it.

[RoaK]

I started fighting two handed sword a while back and I've made it a point to NOT block with my gauntlets (hands). Just for the simple fact that everytime you block with them (even with good gauntlets) you're rolling the dice...

If we made it where a hand shot counted as a good blow people would start TARGETING hands... and that's not good. Most of us use our hands to make a liveing so we can play this game one way or another. We don't need to be aiming at them with clubs.

No, lets stay away from targeting hands... too many fiddly bits in there that can get broke way to easy.

[Hartmann]

I try not to block with my hands, but I'm not unduly worried if it happens.

I was slightly surprised by the comments about polearm blocks, when I fight polearm I try to avoid being hit on my hands. The most common hand hit in that situation is a shot sliding down the haft, and believe me, you DON'T want to do that on purpose...

Another technique I've seen that is a bit iffy rulewise is spearfighters blocking spears with their empty hand. This technique usually pushes the shaft of the spear, so I don't have a huge issue with it though.

[Graedwyn]

If I touch the head of the spear,
I lose my arm.
But if I can swat the spear shaft when it is
on the way in, or grab it when it is
on the way out, I will.

-Graedwyn

[olaf haraldson]

Ja, thats what I meant. Unless they specifically target my hand.

Why would you take a gauntlet shot as "good"? You cannot _have_ a good shot to the hand.

I think he means that he'll take it as a good shot because he blocked it "intentionally" with an illegal target. IE - target substitution.

So, to punish himself, he takes the shot as if it were indeed good.

That's how I read it.

[Adriano]

I'd never deliberately block with my gauntleted hand, and if for some reason I did, I'd take it as a loss. With my 6-foot greatsword, I often block with the 8 or 10 inches of empty hilt between my two hands. With my 4-foot bastard sword, it's all with the blade.

With regards to basket hilts, I guess it comes down to whether we consider the basket to be part of the weapon, like quillons, or to be hand protection. I'd go with the latter. If you've got two sword-and-shield guys facing each other, one with a cross-hilt and a gauntlet, and the other with a basket hilt, they should be equal for purposes of our shared game; they're both fighting to the same assumed standard of armour.

For a period, I used two sticks with basket hilts, and got in the habit of punch-blocking with the hilts. When I gave up the baskets and started using gauntlets, I changed that immediately -- and I really think it's better technique to do one's blocking with the blade and cross. Gives an opportunity to exert some control on one's opponent's weapon.

[Kilkenny]

Another technique I've seen that is a bit iffy rulewise is spearfighters blocking spears with their empty hand. This technique usually pushes the shaft of the spear, so I don't have a huge issue with it though.

Completely within the SCA rule set to grab the haft of the opponent's weapon. If they're contacting haft not head, it isn't iffy, it's thoroughly valid.

[sha-ul]

Asbrand, what about fabricating& welding a cross hilt as as part of the basket hilt, so that you actually block with the cross and any other contact with the basket would be incidental, & hopefully unintentional.

[asbrand]

Asbrand, what about fabricating& welding a cross hilt as as part of the basket hilt, so that you actually block with the cross and any other contact with the basket would be incidental, & hopefully unintentional.

Now...there's a great idea! Hmmmm....

If only I knew how to weld...

[Hospitaller@Acre]

Back in 1992 I just got discharged from the first GW...was in great shape. I was 29 and ready to play. Went to July Feast in Thorngil, Merides. They had a team list..just got back ...no team. Five man teams..me and 3 new guys..just authorized was all that was left. So, did a pickup team with them. First fight drew the Blade Runners..I told the 3 new guys to hit to the left and hold them as long as possible I was going to break right and take out their 2 poleman real quick. Well, it work..the newbies got one of the five ..I got the 2 poles..got a shieldman when this big a** lefty started come down on me..as I punched block with my blade..not my basket..he dropped into a wrap and caught me flat on the back of my leather half gauntlets. I immediatly yelled for a "HOLD". Pulled off my gauntlet to see that my hand had already swollen to 1.5 inches high. Went to the chirugen and got some ice. Got home ..monday called into work went to a doctor..by the way new job..no insurance yet ..had 2 broken metacarpals. I was gun shy for years. I can't block with the basket anymore...thank GOD! I am a casino dealer and I can't afford it. Accidental blocks..no problems...intentional..should be dealt with. I knew a guy years ago that would raise his leg up just so a shot would hit his knee fan so he would not have to call it. There is no honor in bending the rules...
Rannulf

[DietrichUhl]

I guess I wasn't clear enough...my fault.

I've seen *many* fighters who use gauntlets intentionally blocking with them. Like a greatsword fighter who blocks legshots with both quillions and his guantleted hands. Same with polearm fighters. They are intentionally blocking with the haft of the weapon, and more often than not blocking with their gauntlets. Because it is a natural reaction for us humans to try and block things with our hands. Or so it seems.

Also, going by what you just said...if I am using a basket hilt, and I am *attempting* to block with the blade of my sword...it's ok if I just ignore unintentional hits to the basket?

Just wanting to clarify / get opinions.

*EDIT* - my post was in response to Graedwyn.

If they had finger bucklers over the top of the gauntlets would that change your opinion?

-Dietrich

[asbrand]

If they had finger bucklers over the top of the gauntlets would that change your opinion?

-Dietrich

Well, since SCA rules dictate that shields, even bucklers, are immortal and indestructible...sure, why not.

Would be interesting to see someone try that.

[William of Stonebridge]

If they had finger bucklers over the top of the gauntlets would that change your opinion?

-Dietrich

Well, since SCA rules dictate that shields, even bucklers, are immortal and indestructible...sure, why not.

Would be interesting to see someone try that.

Is it legal to use a buckler/shield with a two handed weapon? I was under the impression you could not. Yet, I could not find anything about it in the rules.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

If they had finger bucklers over the top of the gauntlets would that change your opinion?

-Dietrich

Well, since SCA rules dictate that shields, even bucklers, are immortal and indestructible...sure, why not.

Would be interesting to see someone try that.

Is it legal to use a buckler/shield with a two handed weapon? I was under the impression you could not. Yet, I could not find anything about it in the rules.

Firstly, the "finger bucklers" referred to above only cover the fingers, and possibly some of the back of the hand. Not "buckler" in the sense of a sword/buckler fighter. Secondly, AFAIK, it is allowed for a person to carry a shield with a two handed weapon. The rule states it must be "controlled by the hand". If that hand is on a weapon (aka. a spear), it is armour, and blows hitting it must be called as such. Let go of the spear with that hand, and it is a shield. Most people I know that use them have small ones (maybe 14" dia. max), and use them to not die from CA during a rez battle like the Ravine at GW.

[InsaneIrish]

If they had finger bucklers over the top of the gauntlets would that change your opinion?

-Dietrich

Well, since SCA rules dictate that shields, even bucklers, are immortal and indestructible...sure, why not.

Would be interesting to see someone try that.

Is it legal to use a buckler/shield with a two handed weapon? I was under the impression you could not. Yet, I could not find anything about it in the rules.

It is my understanding that it is NOT legal. It falls under the section of "passive armour". Meaning a shield is only a shield if you are actively using it as such. Ie, if you are holding a shield and a greatsword together, and blocking with the sheild, it is a shield. However, if you have a shield strapped to your body or hands while using the greatsword all shots to that shield must be taken as if the shield were not there. It has become passive armour.

This rule is basically to stop someone from walking out on the field with 2 scutums strapped to them like a sandwich board sign, making them immune to body and back shots. But, it also addresses people who strap bucklers to there forarms and fight with greatweapons.

[DietrichUhl]

If they had finger bucklers over the top of the gauntlets would that change your opinion?

-Dietrich

Well, since SCA rules dictate that shields, even bucklers, are immortal and indestructible...sure, why not.

Would be interesting to see someone try that.

Is it legal to use a buckler/shield with a two handed weapon? I was under the impression you could not. Yet, I could not find anything about it in the rules.

Firstly, the "finger bucklers" referred to above only cover the fingers, and possibly some of the back of the hand. Not "buckler" in the sense of a sword/buckler fighter. Secondly, AFAIK, it is allowed for a person to carry a shield with a two handed weapon. The rule states it must be "controlled by the hand". If that hand is on a weapon (aka. a spear), it is armour, and blows hitting it must be called as such. Let go of the spear with that hand, and it is a shield. Most people I know that use them have small ones (maybe 14" dia. max), and use them to not die from CA during a rez battle like the Ravine at GW.

That almost makes sense to me except that the hands are not a target area anyway. So if the buckler covers an illegal strike zone, it makes more sense under your statement to not have them.

However for a larger buckler you post makes only some sense. I don't think there a rule against shield hands holding something. If that it was as you say, that means that someone in a war holding their sword ( or another spear) so they can throw a spear is illegally blocking their whole body with their shield.

I don’t see the problem of someone having a buckler on their off-hand if they have it under control of their hand.

-Dietrich

[Kilkenny]

[Is it legal to use a buckler/shield with a two handed weapon? I was under the impression you could not. Yet, I could not find anything about it in the rules.

It is my understanding that it is NOT legal. It falls under the section of "passive armour". Meaning a shield is only a shield if you are actively using it as such. Ie, if you are holding a shield and a greatsword together, and blocking with the sheild, it is a shield. However, if you have a shield strapped to your body or hands while using the greatsword all shots to that shield must be taken as if the shield were not there. It has become passive armour.

This rule is basically to stop someone from walking out on the field with 2 scutums strapped to them like a sandwich board sign, making them immune to body and back shots. But, it also addresses people who strap bucklers to there forarms and fight with greatweapons.[/quote]

The rule is indeed meant to stop people *wearing* a shield instead of carrying it. I don't know the genesis of the rule, but those of sufficient antiquity may recall a person who would fight two swords while wearing a kite shield strapped to their back.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

I think we should be allowed to target hands....
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But only on people using Madus!