Japanese Armor Tiger Motif

spearweasel · Post by **spearweasel** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:49 am

No, not a tiger-striped armor :shock:

, and not in a "furry" way. :roll:

A friend of mine is making a suit of samurai armor for SCA, and is interested in working in some sort of tiger motif. I have seen tiger pelt scabbards, and I thought Kato Kiyomasa may have worked one into a banner at some point. Beyond that, neither of us knows where to start.

Can anyone make suggestions that would both be period and interesting to see on the field?

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:26 pm

Nope, afraid not.

Some things are just not viable.

Effingham

spearweasel · Post by **spearweasel** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:38 pm

Effingham wrote:Nope, afraid not.

Some things are just not viable.

Effingham

Instead, how about a banner of Torii Suneemon on black velvet? Could he do that? :twisted:

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:15 pm

spearweasel · Post by **spearweasel** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:42 pm

Effingham wrote:

Take that, Baron.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:34 pm

The Shogun of Memphi! :lol:

marcus the pale · Post by **marcus the pale** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:17 am

Though I figured it would be mostly Hollywood induced, or fantasy, I thought it would be cool to have a mempo worked to look like an animal face. I doubt I would ever be able to bring myself to wear it in SCA combat, I still think it would be cool.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:19 am

no tigers, but a bird.

raito · Post by **raito** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:05 am

marcus the pale wrote:Though I figured it would be mostly Hollywood induced, or fantasy, I thought it would be cool to have a mempo worked to look like an animal face. I doubt I would ever be able to bring myself to wear it in SCA combat, I still think it would be cool.

Wanna move here? I'll trade the West for the guy who's doing exactly that here...

Entirely Hollywood. Not even mostly.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:52 am

it is posible but not garish or cheap.
maybe cast or engraved it in to the suba in brass would look good I think not shure as to documentation.
perhaps carved bone toggles would fit the bill.

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:02 pm

I see designs and shapes on The greaves and vambraces (whatever thier Japanese names are) on the standarbearer of the King. why not put some tigers there?

Christopher

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:09 pm

Because it would be WRONG.

Effingham

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:38 pm

I don't know these things, that's why I ask.

BTW...Why is it wrong?

Christopher

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:53 pm

Good question, but a hard one to answer. Well, KIND of hard to answer.

Is it wrong to make a reproduction Model T in firetruck red? Yes. Why? Because Model T's were all black.

Is it wrong to put a Roman senator in a paisley toga? Yes. Why? Because they didn't do that -- they didn't have paisley.

Is it wrong to serve turkey and cornbread at a reenactment of a Byzantine banquet? Yes. Why? Because they didn't have those foodstuffs.

Really, sometimes the answer is as simple as "it's wrong."

Effingham

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:40 pm

So you're saying that tigers were never used in decorating Japanese armour?

Seriously, Eff, I don't know this stuff. No need to act like I had previous knowledge as to whether or not tigers were used. If I had known, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

But I didn't know, hence the question.

Christopher

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:20 pm

No problem at all.

The Japanese were inordinately fond of Karashishi (aka "Chinese lions" or "lion-dogs") however. They've got motifs of karashishi gamboling (I love that word!) about in peony fields out the wazoo.

The thing is, you catch the fascination with tigers in the very late sengoku period -- primarily due to Hideyoshi's campaign in Korea, where a popular pastime became tiger hunting. You find tiger hides starting to appear dressing up camp chairs, and even sword scabbards, but that's pretty much the extent of it.

Kind of odd, actually. One would have expected they would take more of a shine to tiger motifs on their gear. Heck, there are armours patterned after water buffalo (!) and monkeys. Why not tigers? I don't know -- it *does* seem kinda weird. It's one of those "doesn't make sense" things that Japan is FULL of.

Effingham

Symon VanMoordrecht · Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:35 pm

All I can think of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4CeTglmI0

"Sorry Roger, you tiger now!"

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:02 am

granted my knowledge of the area is cursory at best, and I know using wikipidea is not the safest route, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger#Cultural_depictions

Perhaps you don't see tigers showing up in Japanese culture is because it was so prevalent in Chinese culture. The Tiger, in Imperial china, represented the "king" . So, knowing the Asain custom of "face" and presumption, I can see why the japanese would not want to "dis-respect" the beast by using it for their own means.

That and the fact that the tiger is not indiginous to Japan.

Vik · Post by **Vik** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:58 am

So, if Tigers were all the rage in the late sengoku period, which is to the end of the 17th century, then why couldn't one build a suit of armour and use some tiger skin to decorate a small part of it (like a scabbard) for the SCA?

I am pretty ignorant on Japanese Armour, but from what has been said here, wouldn't that be possible? Or is it just that there are no existing suits of Japanese armour with tiger anything on them?

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:43 am

because the SCA persona are supposed to end at 1600 ad. and "tigers" did not come into fashion until late 1600s. Post SCA period.

Let me ask you this, today in the year 2008, would you wear something from 1938? http://www.marquise.de/en/1900/pics/1930/1939_13.shtml

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:54 am

Well, that and it was only the richest and most powerful daimyo (who'd been in Korea) who had *any* tiger stuff at all -- and these can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

The Korean campaign lasted from 1592-98. That really is a very narrow window of opportunity, anyway.

Effingham

Vik · Post by **Vik** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:48 am

The SCA just lists itself as "An international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating pre-17th-century European history."

So I think the timeline is OK.

I know it's a stretch, but what about using the skin as a covering decoration say atop the breastplate? (sorry, I don't know the names of the Japanese parts)

That wouldn't be to garishly inappropriate if subtly done - even if it was not 100% correct.

Just trying to give some ideas.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:36 am

I've followed this thread with interest, because I'm learning about japanese armour too. And Vik, I hope you'll pardon me if I presume to advise you.

You should make *two* sets of japanese armour. Two! Do one up the way you want it, with tiger skin. Wear it to cons and parties, and use it to get chicks. Make it because you like it, and even I think tiger skin would rocketh. Don't pretend it will be anything other than what it is. A set of japanese inspired armour that you made because tigers are cool, and jap armour is cool. It will be like the reese's cup of jap armour.

You should make the second set of armour so accurate down to the closest detail that you can get, that Effingham will be furious with rage that he doesn't own it. Make it well.

In either case, please post pics! Looking forward to seeing your work.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:53 am

spearweasel wrote:No, not a tiger-striped armor , and not in a "furry" way.

A friend of mine is making a suit of samurai armor for SCA, and is interested in working in some sort of tiger motif. I have seen tiger pelt scabbards, and I thought Kato Kiyomasa may have worked one into a banner at some point. Beyond that, neither of us knows where to start.

Can anyone make suggestions that would both be period and interesting to see on the field?

I think this may have snuck into the back of your buddies mind

http://www.starshiptroopers.net/LastSamurai.html

raito · Post by **raito** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:48 pm

Vik wrote:I know it's a stretch, but what about using the skin as a covering decoration say atop the breastplate? (sorry, I don't know the names of the Japanese parts)

That wouldn't be to garishly inappropriate if subtly done - even if it was not 100% correct.

There's no way for tiger skin to be subtle (unless it's on the beast himself, in a mottled jungle).

All the fur coverings I've seen on breastplates are post 1600.

Leather covering for the top plate of the breastplate (assuming there is a top plate, and assuming it is covered with leather) is of a rather standard form, with no deviations I know of.

Since somebody is likely to do it one way or another, one could possibly find a textile pattern that, while NOT I REPEAT NOT being tiger in pattern, evokes something similar. Sone of the banded cloud motifs, for example. Then those textiles, in proper colors, of course, could be used, properly, for certain of the various garments worn with armour. This is about as close as I would go.

This is not license to go and buy tiger stiped fabric for your hakama, but it is a license to be laughed at if you do.

Disclaimer: I have a chink of tiger fur (fake) that I plop over my camp stool. Though it was a looong time ago, I recall reading that at some time, it was considered pretty chic to have gone to the continent to hunt tiger, and that the faux-chic bought skins from China to look fashionable. But I don't recall any mention of use other than for a seat cover similar to what I do, or covering a scabbard, or haning a piece of the tail therefrom. But hey, that was at least 20 years ago, and a lot of stuff from then has been superceded by better scholarship.

Japanese Armor Tiger Motif

Japanese Armor Tiger Motif

Re: Japanese Armor Tiger Motif