Riveted maille from scratch...again

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:58 pm

About two and a half years ago I started trying to make riveted maille
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51353

Well, I finally made some.

It's 5/16' ID 18 ga. wire, the rivets are made from 17 ga. wire. I will take pictures of my tools later. My ring flattener is a piston with some play in it. Striking it normally produces flat rings, if you tilt the piston in the direction of the overlap you can flatten just the overlap of the ring, since I plan on doing round ring pin rivet also.

Punch made with Steve Sheldon's instructions at Arador, rivet setting tongs are some of Steve's from a long while back.

The rings have too much of an overlap, I know. These rings were cut out over two years ago before we knew what we were doing.

Some rivets bent over instead of piening. I think I have corrected this and it doesn't happen anymore. I scanned this image before correcting it however.

It looks like crap scanned by my scanner, looks a lot nicer in person. I'll get more photos up later.

Please, please, pick it apart, I want to get good at this.

Doug

High res image http://www.dougconfere.com/maille.jpg

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:51 pm

That looks great, Doug!

So when will my hauberk be ready?

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:58 pm

What, you didn't draw your own wire?!

Seriously though, nice work!

-Donasian.

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:07 pm

Donasian wrote:What, you didn't draw your own wire?!

Seriously though, nice work!

-Donasian.

It's like you read my mind!

Guess what's next after the bloomery is finished?

And thanks!

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:03 am

Cool beans. :-D

I've drawn little silver wire, but never iron. It's fun.

-Donasian.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:05 am

Nice.

Dierick · Post by **Dierick** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:34 am

Heh, your insane.

That is some serious devotion. No way in hell I would make my own rings, my hands are killing me with blisters just from knitting the rings and closing them.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:33 am

Nice job. They look similar to the commercial flat links , maybe a bit too flat? Just my opinion. Ant.

Benedek · Post by **Benedek** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:08 pm

Josh Warren wrote:That looks great, Doug!

So when will my hauberk be ready?

You've already got voiders and a mail skirt. I get the first Hauberk

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:12 pm

Looks good to me.

It is interesting to note that I have seen authentic pieces where the rivets folded over, too.

With our modernly produced maille it happens rarely, since the rivets are produced by machinery that insures that each rivet is identical and thus protrudes through the ring approximately the same. But with hand-made rivets you may from time to time encounter a rivet that sticks up a little too high, making it prone to folding. Or the guy setting the rivets may have hit it at a bit of an angle, who knows. Any way, it plagued period maille makers, too.

Steve

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:27 pm

Steve, that makes me feel a lot better.

Real armour is shitty, and anyone that's inspected the real stuff up close knows exactly what I mean. I have no problems making the same mistakes or taking the same shortcuts that the original armourers did

The last thing I want is to make maille so perfect it looks like it came from a machine. What would be the point?

Ant isn't the first to say that the links may be too flat, what do you say Steve? I know there are a few in there that are way too flat but overall what do you think?

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:52 am

I am seriously considering getting the tools together to make rivetted maille.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:15 am

Yeah I would say just a hair too flat.

Next time I make a ring flattening tool it is going to be designed so the piston bottoms out on something so as to control the depth of crush.

I've designed a machine to automatically flatten rings - I was going to use a Black and Webster electro punch to try and do the flattening.

Hydraulics would work, too.

Steve

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:13 am

If I get a rivetting tool, a couple pairs of pliers, and order some some flat rings & rivets from theringlord.com, would I need anything else to get going with some rivetted mail?

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:43 am

Nope, that's all you would need. Although doesn't the ring lord only sell really shitty rings and pin rivets?

Checking their site, they don't even have riveted rings available right now.

B. Alejandro, all you need to make everything from scratch is a mandrel, a modified pair of snips to cut overlapped rings, a ring flattening jig, atorch to anneal, and punch tongs along with some rivet setting tongs. It might sound like a lot but it's not!

And handmade maille looks a million times better than buying machine made links and making something nobody can tell you made is no fun! You may as well buy it at that point.

But I understand making your own rings IS slightly time consuming, so do what you gotta do!

Corey D. Sullivan · Post by **Corey D. Sullivan** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:55 am

I believe that WholesaleArmour sells galvanized riveted rings by the 10,000.

Round, but I think they have flat too if you ask.

http://www.wholesalearmor.com/zincrivetrings.html

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:59 am

Hello. As to "hand made mail" looking better than machine made mail, I have never seen any machine made shirts or coifs that had no bad links. My mail is hand assembled and looks better than any manufactured piece because I pick out only the best links so as to be able to stand up to rebated steel swords and SCA rattan. Function is my foremost concern, therefore, I refuse to employ lesser links. It does however suck when out of a 1olb bag of pre-fab links, I have to turf as much as 30% of them as they are "shitty" links. I have also made a small amount of mail from scratch but, i,d rather be linking and riveteing than making my own due to time constraints. Just my opinion. Ant.

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:44 pm

Ant,

I could rationalize making my own links, from claiming it was availability to cost to anything else, but the real reason I make my own is because I don't want a finished product made with homogenized obviously machine made links with no flaws or variations, I want something obviously hand made with little flaws and differences that I can say I truly made from the ground up (except I didn't draw my own wire - yet)

Yeah, it sucks having to make my own rings, but it's worth it in the end IMO.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:01 pm

Doug,

Thanks for the tips! I have made my own mail (including links) before, but it was your standard issue SCA-style round-ring butted maille. It was a lot of fun and I'm glad I did it. In Alejandro's Ideal World, I'd have time to make my own links & rivets.

But I'm not switching to a metric (30 hour) day anytime soon, so I think I"m going to stick with buying rings & rivets!

The big sticker is finding the tool.

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:11 pm

A rivet setting tool is super easy to make. Steve said he had some of the pliers he uses to make them available, you might convince him to part with a set. All you need after that is a dremel tool to make the groove and hole.

What do you plan on making, BTW?

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:46 pm

You know, I've heard conflicting reports on just how easy that tool is to make :lol:

Plus I have no idea what i'm supposed to end up with, so we'll see.

I think I want a rivetted hauberk. I know, start small, right?

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:22 pm

Is it possible to buy a ring-flattening and rivet setting tool?

I'd prefer round as opposed to wedge rivets, personally, but that's just me.

Thanks,
Christopher

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:39 pm

Well good luck Alejandro! It's a lot of work, just take it one link at a time and it will get done.

RenJunkie, The Ring Lord sells tools, but they look incredibly crappy and are seriously overpriced.

Renjunkie if you really want a flattening tool and a rivet setting tong, let me see what I can scrounge up in my shop, I might be able to make some I could sell you.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:44 pm

Hey Matt (I just figured out recently that you are Matt.

).

I will make you a set of tongs this weekend.

Steve

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:39 pm

Well I have to appologize, I did not get to make them this weekend. We tilled a garden plot and by Sunday afternoon I was absolutely whipped. It is amazing how useful a gas-powered tiller is and at the same time how unuseful.

I had envisioned a machine that you calmly walk behind, like a push mower, that slowly ate into the Earth as you propelled it along.

It is nothing like that. It is almost cartoon-ish, like in the cartoons when they drop a circle saw and it races around the house slicing everything. The tiller basically has giant claw blades that claw the earth, and you have to take everything you've got to hold it in place while it digs into the earth. It is not easy. In fact we would not have been able to do it at all if my wife had not come up with the idea of tying it to the back of our garden tractor with a length of rope. I tilled, and she slowly pulled the tiller backwards when I gave her the go-ahead after the tiller had chewed up the ground sufficiently. It still took hours to do and I am absolutely worn out from it.

Steve

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:47 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:Well I have to appologize, I did not get to make them this weekend. We tilled a garden plot and by Sunday afternoon I was absolutely whipped. It is amazing how useful a gas-powered tiller is and at the same time how unuseful.

I had envisioned a machine that you calmly walk behind, like a push mower, that slowly ate into the Earth as you propelled it along.

It is nothing like that. It is almost cartoon-ish, like in the cartoons when they drop a circle saw and it races around the house slicing everything. The tiller basically has giant claw blades that claw the earth, and you have to take everything you've got to hold it in place while it digs into the earth. It is not easy. In fact we would not have been able to do it at all if my wife had not come up with the idea of tying it to the back of our garden tractor with a length of rope. I tilled, and she slowly pulled the tiller backwards when I gave her the go-ahead after the tiller had chewed up the ground sufficiently. It still took hours to do and I am absolutely worn out from it.

Steve

You got a front tine...

Next year, spend the time to find/borrow/liberate a Troy-Built or similar _rear_ tine tiller.

The first pass is a bit bumpy, but after two crosshatch runs, you can walk beside it with one hand on it as it digs in down to the depth gauge (28 inches, last time I used one).

Seriously. Rear tine, self powered, worth EVERY EXTRA PENNY in expense.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:02 am

Well we rented one (about $45 for the weekend) and that was what they gave us. We didn't know any better so my wife didn't ask if they had anything else. Next time I'll know.

Actually next year I think I'll buy some dynamite and just bury it in the ground and light it off.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:10 am

Doug Confere wrote:Well good luck Alejandro! It's a lot of work, just take it one link at a time and it will get done.

RenJunkie, The Ring Lord sells tools, but they look incredibly crappy and are seriously overpriced.

Renjunkie if you really want a flattening tool and a rivet setting tong, let me see what I can scrounge up in my shop, I might be able to make some I could sell you.

Hey while you're making rivet setting tongs.....

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:19 am

are you matt or is that the other guy?

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:32 am

I am not Matt......

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:33 am

Steve -SoFC- wrote:Well we rented one (about $45 for the weekend) and that was what they gave us. We didn't know any better so my wife didn't ask if they had anything else. Next time I'll know.

Actually next year I think I'll buy some dynamite and just bury it in the ground and light it off.

SPeaking from personal experience, that only works if you want a fish pond, not a garden.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:52 am

Baron Alejandro wrote:I am not Matt......

I thought you were Matthew Broadway?

Well anyway, I'll make you a set of tongs, it will take a weekend or so.

Steve