I told him it was an illegal shot...

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Fri May 16, 2008 6:13 pm

This is why I am ditching hidden knees for some Duke Andreas AA stuff. Anyone else find they get hit in the knees more when wearing hidden knees? Fortunatly I discovered it is period for me to wear greaves and legs if I was a cavarly soldier.

freiman the minstrel · Fri May 16, 2008 6:32 pm

yeah, it happens. I fight out of a hanging guard with my sheild on my knee, so I actually get whacked in the calf a lot.

f

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Fri May 16, 2008 6:33 pm

I put big leather patches on my pants over leg armor.
1) so that I don't burn through pants
2) so people have some idea where my knees are

Also, you need better knee armor. I get hit in the knee allot (no matter if the armor is under or over pants) because I dodge backwards and sideways out of shots. This screws up people's targeting but gets you cracked in the knee.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Fri May 16, 2008 7:18 pm

Right now I am kind of cheating the system my knees pass but just barely, I have some nice Ice Falcon legs on order. I find more than anything I either drive someoneâ€™s marginal shot into my knee or they just straight up hit my knee. I found that since I went back to hidden knees I get smashed in the knees a whole lot more than when I wore greaves.

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Fri May 16, 2008 8:10 pm

That's not too surprising. If your oponent can see your knees, they know where to aim above. If they can't see them, they try to get below your shield and hope they don't hit your knees. Some form of marking, be it the knee armor, a strip or whatever will reduce the low shots quite a bit.

Dan

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Fri May 16, 2008 9:15 pm

Sorry to hear that Damon. I made the switch to greaves this passed weekend and fought tuesday and thursday with no cuisses :shock:

Needless to say getting some splinted or gambosed cuisses is going to be the next priority.
I never had the low problem wearing black pants over my articulated knees but some have better luck then others..

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri May 16, 2008 10:49 pm

Damon wrote: Anyone else find they get hit in the knees more when wearing hidden knees?

No.

I'm on the left.

If only I had pressed home that thrust.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Fri May 16, 2008 10:49 pm

I'm not fighting all that often these days, but when I did I did not find it a frequent problem.

I did get hit recently in the knee at a tourney. It happens from time to time. That's why we wear armour.

Ceawlin Alreding · Post by **Ceawlin Alreding** » Fri May 16, 2008 11:04 pm

I got whaled on in the knees at Ice Dragon. I think the way my lam sits slid shots into them. The greaves came back into the kit real quick. From what I remember from your kit there really shouldn't be that much of a problem, except that if you're wearing crap for protection, well....
And yeah, your Rus-Biziteen kit really would jump to the next level with some greaves, dude.

Oh, and Baron Alejandro, you need to post more pics of your kit, it rocketh mightily

freiman the minstrel · Sat May 17, 2008 12:01 am

Ceawlin Alreding wrote:I got whaled on in the knees at Ice Dragon. I think the way my lam sits slid shots into them. The greaves came back into the kit real quick. From what I remember from your kit there really shouldn't be that much of a problem, except that if you're wearing crap for protection, well....
And yeah, your Rus-Biziteen kit really would jump to the next level with some greaves, dude.

Oh, and Baron Alejandro, you need to post more pics of your kit, it rocketh mightily

Both of these statements are true.

Also, one thing that came to mind was the saying "Ouch! That was low, hold, I need to sit down!" seems more gentlemanly than saying "That was an illegal shot."

The the good baron's kid doth Rock Mightily.

f

AaronCarter · Post by **AaronCarter** » Sat May 17, 2008 4:27 am

I've found that a round sheild guides shots in low. There is a Knight in my area who wears minimum armour with the exception of greves because his round sheild guides shots into his shins.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:16 am

Well I am putting on legs but probably underneath my pants. At pensic I am going to get some Rus boots done that will look like this. So i will tuck my pants into my boots. This should easily define where my knees are. However I will be wearing Ice Falcon low profile AA legs under my pants.

I realize those are acutally brown boots with greaves strapped on. I am just going to have them done as boots. Foot soldiers did not wear greaves and knees only the cavarly did.

Yes for those of you who knew me back in the day marrying has made me a FOP.

RoaK · Post by **RoaK** » Sat May 17, 2008 10:03 am

An illegal shot, no... a shot that dosen't have to be taken, yes.

We wear knee armor for a reason.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:14 am

I should explain the hit a little better. The guy hit me and I said, "low" and he said, "are you sure?" I said, "yeah I am pretty sure the side of my knee is an illegal target area."

He swore up and down he hit me on the inside of my thigh until I showed him the welt later on that clearly was on the side of my knee.

I do wear knee armor just not a whole lot. I also don't wear thigh armor. The problem I have with that is I get hit and take a few steps and then the hit registers. I usually call hold and apologize then drop to my knees. I am hoping to eliminate this issue buy wearing some splinted legs under my pants. It may remove the sting but, at least I will feel the pressure of the shot when it actually lands.

A few weeks ago I was fighting a new guy. He was sticking his butt out a lot so I gave him a few love taps, I pulled the shots, and he limped off the field. I went over and talked to him and said he would get better in time and learn to block his legs. He said something about his armor not being good enough. So I said, "hey man touch my thigh", in a man on man pit fighter to pit fighter kind of way, he touches my thigh and says, "Wow you got some heavy leather on under there," I said, "Dude that is my thigh."

Kormak · Post by **Kormak** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:23 am

Ceawlin Alreding wrote:I got whaled on in the knees at Ice Dragon. I think the way my lam sits slid shots into them. The greaves came back into the kit real quick. From what I remember from your kit there really shouldn't be that much of a problem, except that if you're wearing crap for protection, well....
And yeah, your Rus-Biziteen kit really would jump to the next level with some greaves, dude.

Oh, and Baron Alejandro, you need to post more pics of your kit, it rocketh mightily

I agree Ceawlin..

Baron, post some more pics of that kit !!!!

bigfredb · Post by **bigfredb** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:49 am

I get hit in the knees ALL the time, usually just below the knee and above the calf. This is mainly because of two reasons: my height and my shield.

My height is a factor because my knees are where most peoples mid-thigh is (I am 6' 6").

The shape and size of my shield directs blows right into my knees.

Because of this, my knee protection is very important. I wear hardened leather knee cops and padded, rollerblading knee pads underneath.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Sun May 18, 2008 11:19 am

Damon wrote:I should explain the hit a little better. The guy hit me and I said, "low" and he said, "are you sure?" I said, "yeah I am pretty sure the side of my knee is an illegal target area." He swore up and down he hit me on the inside of my thigh until I showed him the welt later on that clearly was on the side of my knee.

I do wear knee armor just not a whole lot. I also don't wear thigh armor. The problem I have with that is I get hit and take a few steps and then the hit registers. I usually call hold and apologize then drop to my knees. I am hoping to eliminate this issue buy wearing some splinted legs under my pants. It may remove the sting but, at least I will feel the pressure of the shot when it actually lands.

A few weeks ago I was fighting a new guy. He was sticking his butt out a lot so I gave him a few love taps, I pulled the shots, and he limped off the field. I went over and talked to him and said he would get better in time and learn to block his legs. He said something about his armor not being good enough. So I said, "hey man touch my thigh", in a man on man pit fighter to pit fighter kind of way, he touches my thigh and says, "Wow you got some heavy leather on under there," I said, "Dude that is my thigh."

See, I disagree with this. Wear good armour. Wear armour that allows you to

a) move well
b) feel a good shot
c) not be crippled by 2 or 3 good shots

Spending my whole unbelt career fighting without leg armour was one of the dumbest things I've ever done. It actually slowed my progress down as it put an upper limit on the number of practices I could make during a period of time since one or two good leg shots made me pretty much twitchy for days at a time.

JP

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Sun May 18, 2008 1:17 pm

Damon, where did you read that foot soldiers did not wear greaves (and in what culture/time period)?

Duke Areus · Post by **Duke Areus** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:24 pm

I only get hit in the shins when I'm wearing greaves :lol:

kelly powell · Post by **kelly powell** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:01 pm

I like the idea of patches when wearing hidden knees.....The landshnekt(sp?) guys could do awesome stuff with it....I'm thinking the yellow and black stripes found areound machinery.
if i'm not using a buckler, I fight with a 21"x23" rectangular center grip......I inadvertantlyguide shots into my knees all the time.
It's not the getting hit that will bother me, it is when someone starts lawyering me about whether it actually hit me in the knee or not....not how hard, but trying to tell me (whjo is experiencing the pain) WHERE IT HIT.

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:46 pm

The late Duke Gyrth Oldcastle of Ravenspur (may his memory aye be held in high honour) wore big baggy fighting pants, and for a time many people complained that they could not tell where his knees were.

So he added white stripes around the pant legs marking the tops of his knees.

Now, His Grace was a man of considerable size and, well, girth. The additions to his pants led to a joke or two about one white belt not being enough because he was so large . . .

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:57 pm

10th century Russian give or take a few years. Mostly from the reliefs I have seen, paintings, and osprey stuff it shows guys on horses always wearing some type of greave and or knees and foot soldiers just wearing some sort of protection to their knees and then just boots with the pants stuffed into it. From what I can see the foot guys usually wore some combination of chain mail, lamellar, and padding that ran down to just about the top of their knees. The officers, nobles, and horse guys wore a combo of padding, plate, chain, sabotons, and lamellar generally running full coverage from foot to neck.

I am picking up some period Russian boots and adding trim around my knees on my legs. If that does not work I can wear the legs on the outside of my pants. I just wanted to stick with the whole foot soldier look but, my knees may require I start wearing the armor outside the pants.

Euric Germanicus · Post by **Euric Germanicus** » Sun May 18, 2008 10:50 pm

Ouch. I had a bruise like that a year ago before I made the switch to stainless greaves.

Greaves do not solve all your problems, they can still wrap you in the calf. :shock:

THAT hurts.

Kotek · Post by **Kotek** » Mon May 19, 2008 6:14 am

Damon wrote:10th century Russian give or take a few years. Mostly from the reliefs I have seen, paintings, and osprey stuff it shows guys on horses always wearing some type of greave and or knees and foot soldiers just wearing some sort of protection to their knees and then just boots with the pants stuffed into it. From what I can see the foot guys usually wore some combination of chain mail, lamellar, and padding that ran down to just about the top of their knees. The officers, nobles, and horse guys wore a combo of padding, plate, chain, sabotons, and lamellar generally running full coverage from foot to neck.

I am picking up some period Russian boots and adding trim around my knees on my legs. If that does not work I can wear the legs on the outside of my pants. I just wanted to stick with the whole foot soldier look but, my knees may require I start wearing the armor outside the pants.

I currently don't have any energy to word a fancy reply to this, but I'm most interested in the boots, and the documentation you may have for them, along with wanting to see more photos of your gear. Please, tell us more

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:49 am

My kit is inspired by this Osprey cover page.

Here are some shots of it

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/conruse/IMG_1570.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/conruse/IMG_1571.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/conruse/IMG_1572.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/conruse/IMG_1573.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/conruse/IMG_1574.jpg[/img]

There are the boots I am currently wearing. They are just some cheapo 35 dollar chinese things.

[img]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r196/conruse/IMG_1575.jpg[/img]

This is a shot of me being escorted out of court by the queen's guard. The tunic you see me wearing is what I fight in. So it covers the arms which near as I can tell are not even close to being period but necessary for SCA combat.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:10 pm

Here are some of the things I base my armor off of. It is various examples of lamellar and chain mail. There is an osprey rendition in there just for kicks. The big thing for the boots are the ones that were found completely persevered under the Kremlin and are on display at the Kremlin museum.

What I tried to model my current scale chest from. The coif I wear covers the non period shoulders to a degree. I sacrificed period for having a good piece of stainless keeping my shoulder points in one piece.

Shows guys wearing coifs

That is the type of boot I am having made only with a little opulence thrown in. Blame D. Sebastion for that.

Osprey rendition shows cav guys wearing leg protection. I know Osprey is arguable but this is just in for fun.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon May 19, 2008 2:07 pm

Sweet.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon May 19, 2008 5:19 pm

Many years ago I routinely fought in harness that covered my leg armour and gave no clear indication of where my knees were. People tended to recognize the bend at the kneecap and aim one inch above that - which would put their shots on the top portion of the knee, not the one inch above the knee that is legal.

I've always worn extraordinarily sturdy knee protection, as I am of the opinion that a shot that doesn't count should also have no effect. That worked pretty well most of the time.

Since changing to a visible leg harness, the shots into the knees have dropped to almost never.

Ceawlin Alreding · Post by **Ceawlin Alreding** » Mon May 19, 2008 5:24 pm

This is a shot of me being escorted out of court by the queen's guard.

That's the SCA equivilant to a mug shot, right there.

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Mon May 19, 2008 5:51 pm

Damon,

http://warriorsofhistory.com/research/gallery/?p=0&g=16

You could always portray dismounted cavalry.

white mountain armoury · Mon May 19, 2008 6:16 pm

Personally I like the idea of a persian style boot and hidden knee.
Its more appropriate I feel.
Daniel has a pair and they are very stout and would offer nice lower leg protection.
Baggy Rus trousers and you would be all set, plus you can hide a great deal under them.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:41 pm

Cav = Officer = Ewwww foot grunt all the way. I am gonna go the Rus boot with the D Sebastion flare and baggy pants stuffed into them. Duke Andreas is whipping up the legs/knees now and I am talking to a boot maker about the boots.

Kotek · Post by **Kotek** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:52 pm

white mountain armoury, I very much liked the kit you did with the baggy trousers... What pattern do you use for them? Also, do you know of any pictorial evidence for them at this time? (I think the only evidence is the Hedeby find, right?)

Damon, I very much want a pair of similar boots, but they're in the "when I have lots of money" list... Attatched should be another photo.

Kotek · Post by **Kotek** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:54 pm

Damon wrote:Cav = Officer = Ewwww foot grunt all the way. I am gonna go the Rus boot with the D Sebastion flare and baggy pants stuffed into them. Duke Andreas is whipping up the legs/knees now and I am talking to a boot maker about the boots.

Who are you getting to do the boots?

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:57 pm

Damon wrote:Cav = Officer = Ewwww foot grunt all the way. I am gonna go the Rus boot with the D Sebastion flare and baggy pants stuffed into them. Duke Andreas is whipping up the legs/knees now and I am talking to a boot maker about the boots.

1) not every guy on a horse was an officer.

2) I'm going to kick you in the junk.

I told him it was an illegal shot...

I told him it was an illegal shot...

Re: I told him it was an illegal shot...