How to deal with maille around face-Aventail

newfghtr · Post by **newfghtr** » Wed May 21, 2008 5:12 pm

I am in the process of attaching a camail to a Bascinet with the standard
leather "staple" and vervelles.

My queston lies in what to do or what was done in period with the excess
maille at and around the face opening of the helm.

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:33 pm

This is my standard tutorial:

http://nickfriend.fatcow.com/klappvisier/id13.html

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:35 pm

Linky no worky.

Christopher

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:39 pm

Done fixed.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu May 22, 2008 12:37 am

Nice link and great pics on how to.
Thanks.

Hal

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu May 22, 2008 12:48 am

By "excess, " do you mean it droops too far down off your chin?

The temple triangles hold it up pretty well, and taking a few stitches in the camail liner does the rest. The temple triangles act a lot like the chains of a drawbridge.

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Thu May 22, 2008 1:24 am

Drawbridge... that's a really great analogy!

If you don't want to do the full liner like I did, threading a leather thong or shoelace through the top row of links (right under your lower lip) and tightening that curve just a little bit will help keep it closer to your chin and not sag.

Klaus the Red, no relation.

Ingelri · Post by **Ingelri** » Thu May 22, 2008 2:17 pm

That's exactly what I do with mine. Works just fine.

Ingelri

Klaus the Red wrote:If you don't want to do the full liner like I did, threading a leather thong or shoelace through the top row of links (right under your lower lip) and tightening that curve just a little bit will help keep it closer to your chin and not sag.

Klaus the Red, no relation.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:22 pm

I don't think that is the correct solution.
If you look at effigies of the period, the aventail has a bit of a "corner" to it on the face opening and is flat across the face. In order to achieve this you must remove links at the top of the face opening. If you visualize the piece of mail in the face opening as an "H" the top two legs of the "H" need to be 8 to 10 links less wide than the bottom to achieve this flat front or "cornered" look.
In other words. The flap that comes up into the face opening needs less width on the top of the face opening. I removed, if memory serves, about 5 links on each side of the top of the face "flap". I tapered this out to the "full" width I thought I needed. You have now pulled the top of the flap, closer to the face and at the bottom it accommodates the chin. The result (once sewn to a silk or linen lining) is a flat front to the aventail, just like the effigies of the period. Iâ€™m in Vancouver at the moment, but next week if needed I can get some pictures of this piece I'm referring to.
The "thong" through the curve is a cheat and not needed if the mail is tailored correctly.

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:40 pm

But it's a hell of a lot easier, and you can't screw it up. I've often taken out too many links when I shouldn't have.

I'm sure it was done sometime by someone. I imagine there were well-made camails that were shaped as you describe, and munitions-grade ones with lacing. How can it be "cheating" if it's period-plausible and it achieves the desired effect?

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:59 pm

Klaus the Red wrote:But it's a hell of a lot easier, and you can't screw it up. I've often taken out too many links when I shouldn't have.

I'm sure it was done sometime by someone. I imagine there were well-made camails that were shaped as you describe, and munitions-grade ones with lacing. How can it be "cheating" if it's period-plausible and it achieves the desired effect?

Why do you think that? Why waste extra links when they are not needed?
Professional tailors do not use staplers to hem dresses!
Iâ€™m surprised at the response; this is not a difficult thing. And if you remove too many linksâ€¦â€¦...put them back!

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Thu May 22, 2008 11:25 pm

And I'm surprised how much this discussion is raising my blood pressure. I'll just quit now rather than respond.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:33 am

Just from the descriptions I think you two are speaking of two different "aventails." You should shake hands and make up.

This is why Newfghtr wrote "camail," and why I also do.

Gaston is talking about the appendage to a mail coif, Klaus about a bascinet camail. Since you don't ventilate through that part, that's why I insist on saying camail.

And remarking that a plate full of holes in front of your face is also a ventail, when necessary.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Fri May 23, 2008 8:00 am

No, I'm referring to an aventail on a bascinet. Not a coif.
I'm sorry you feel your blood pressure rise. I just do not agree with your logic.
I do not agree that an armourer of the period would prefer to leave more links in an Camail/ aventail and lace them up with a leather thong, than using a correctly tailored pattern to achieve a better result and using less mail. The first way seems to be more work and uses more material. It also does not result in the same line that you see in effigies of the period.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:02 am

The surviving aventails/camails from Churburg and Chartres are tailered to the face without the use of a leather thong.

There is a little trick to it which I figured out by staring at pictures of the Churburg 13 for a couple of hours.

I have used this technique on about a half a dozen basinets over the years. The facial opening fits closely enough that you can wear your mustache over the mail like Black Prince.

I have a set of instructions which I've given to armorers in the past, but it is in my handwriting, and therefore almost impossible to read. If there is interest, I can rewrite and re-illustrate it and post it here. It will take me a few hours to do this.

Mac

Gregoire de Lyon · Post by **Gregoire de Lyon** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:33 am

Mac wrote: If there is interest, I can rewrite and re-illustrate it and post it here. It will take me a few hours to do this.

Count me interested.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:44 pm

Me too. Passionately. I'm writing an article on making and attaching a camail, trying to compile all the good knowledge of method I can find -- or can link to. It will likely end up addressing several levels of experience.

I'm sure I should link, for instance, to Klaus the Red's illustrated how-to. Were your article to be filed on a server, I would link to that also.

Kalle Ommer · Post by **Kalle Ommer** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:49 pm

Mac wrote:The surviving aventails/camails from Churburg and Chartres are tailered to the face without the use of a leather thong.

There is a little trick to it which I figured out by staring at pictures of the Churburg 13 for a couple of hours.

I have used this technique on about a half a dozen basinets over the years. The facial opening fits closely enough that you can wear your mustache over the mail like Black Prince.

I have a set of instructions which I've given to armorers in the past, but it is in my handwriting, and therefore almost impossible to read. If there is interest, I can rewrite and re-illustrate it and post it here. It will take me a few hours to do this.

Mac

As I am in the process of doing a riveted camail for my bascinet I am more than interested :twisted:

Kalle

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri May 23, 2008 2:03 pm

Sir Gaston wrote:No, I'm referring to an aventail on a bascinet. Not a coif.

Sir Gaston wrote:The flap that comes up into the face opening needs less width on the top of the face opening. I removed, if memory serves, about 5 links on each side of the top of the face "flap". I tapered this out to the "full" width I thought I needed. You have now pulled the top of the flap, closer to the face and at the bottom it accommodates the chin.

Did I misunderstand you somehow? A finished camail, at least, doesn't have a flap anywhere, unless you want to stretch a point with a German midcentury bretÃ¨che. Do you speak of the chin portion of a camail, front and center? So far, I've never built one except as a continuous circular piece, no loose flaps anywhere and not a lot of differentiation as to structure or weave over the chin either.

I agree about the taper, but I think I get it differently by establishing that as the forward edge of each temple triangle. Instead of your H-with-a-waist, I visualize a \_/ of about the same number of links at the base -- depends on link size.

If I read your description right, it suggests an angled join (45 or maybe 90 degree join) between linkrows, on either side of your jaw.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Fri May 23, 2008 2:18 pm

I put flap in quotes to refer to the section of mail attached to the face opening of the bascinet. Not an actual flap.
your diagram is upside down. The mail is narrower at the top than the bottom. (Top being near your nose.)

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri May 23, 2008 2:35 pm

I think we may be imagining two different parts of the camail. This is a sketch of the bottom and sides of the face opening as defined by the camail with its triangles: \_/, and the bottom is between point of chin and lower lip. That's about as close to "near the nose" as it comes.

Leaving the bascinet skull out of things, from the front the camail looks roughly like |\_/|. A bit too hard to get a face in there looking back out at that scale...

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    |\  - -  /|
   /   \ "  /  \
  /              \  something like that.

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Fri May 23, 2008 4:48 pm

Definitely interested here, Mac. Gonna be coming up in my world in a few months.

Christopher

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri May 23, 2008 5:07 pm

RenJunkie, Kalle Ommer, Konstantin,Gregoire,et al.,

I'll try to make it presentable and post it this weekend.

Mac

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Fri May 23, 2008 6:40 pm

Mac,

You rock.

P.S. Love your pewter stuff too!

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun May 25, 2008 3:12 pm

I've just gotten a chance to look at that document I promised to revise and post. It needs more revision that I had previously thought. I've had some new ideas in the intervening 12 years since I last revised it, and I would like the new version to reflect that.

Bear with me.
Mac

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon May 26, 2008 1:08 am

Worth the wait, sans doute.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon May 26, 2008 3:25 pm

So, it turns out, I underestimated the scope of the revision, and it can't happen within the time scale I promised.

My original tutorial was developed before the days of "of the shelf" aventails, ind it presumes you are going to make one up, one ring at a time. Furthermore, most of it deals with the "cape" rather than the facial. While I'm sure many of you would like to see that, the original issue in this thread was dealing with the face, so I thought I should address that first.

My next post will include the diagram I just made today. It sums up the most important idea about facial tailoring in two pictures. I plan to elaborate on this at a later date. I'm going out of town for a week, starting on Tuesday, and wanted to post something before I did so.

Mac

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon May 26, 2008 4:11 pm

This diagram shows the "theory" of aventail facial tailoring.

It is a slightly simplified version of what is happening in the two aventails at Churburg (#13 and #15)

The most important thing about this type of tailoring is that the facial opening is bordered in "straight grained" mail. This "straight grain" will bear tension, in a way that mail cut on a diagonal will not.

The bottom of the facial opening is made just wide enough for the mouth.

The upper corners of the facial are lifted up, and out, and sewn to the leather band at the level of the eyebrows.

The "bias grain" edges of the facial are sewn to the leather band. This stabilizes them, so they sit neatly, without sagging.

The lifting of the facial affects the drape of the mail of the "cape" across the chest. It makes the lower edge fall straighter across, like the contemporary illustrations. It also causes the mail over the chest to be less tense, so fewer expansions are needed in front.

I call this the "simplified" tailoring, because the two aventails at Churburg have a slightly different treatment of the diagonal or "bias" edges of the facial. They are not sewn directly to the leather band, but instead are joined obliquely to a narrow strip (three rings wide) of "straight grained" mail which is sewn to the leather.

I will deal further with the more sophisticated version at a later date.

I will be here to answer questions today and tomorrow, then I'm gone for a week.

Mac

white mountain armoury · Mon May 26, 2008 4:22 pm

Thats excellent, thank you.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon May 26, 2008 4:23 pm

Here is a detail of the Churburg #15, showing the way the "bias grain" mail of the facial is joined to the narrow straight grained strip which is sewn to the leather.

Note well; that the edge which defines the wearers face is "straight grain".

Mac

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon May 26, 2008 6:30 pm

Looking at that picture of the Cherbourg, it makes me ask, did they do the leather to mail attachment working with just the three or so rows, and then connect the aventail to those rows.

I can see where that would make stitching to the leather a much more manageable process, not having to control the behaviour of the entire aventail while stitching...

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon May 26, 2008 7:04 pm

Gavin,

I think not really; at least historically.

For one, sewing on an aventail that actually fits is not a great hardship. I realize that this is not the experience of most of this list's readers, but I hope that that will change.

The other reason is, that this would involve the cooperation of two different craftsmen, the mail maker and the guy who sews the aventail on. The latter is probably the same as the guy who makes and sews in the lining.

This is not the same as saying that I never do it the way you suggested. I frequently do, because I am both of those guys.

Mac

Duane W · Post by **Duane W** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:34 pm

I've had the opportunity to stitch four aventails on to leathers for mounting to vervelles. It takes less than an hour to do so for an aventail that fits correctly. The real trick is to make sure the leather is trained to lie flat against the basinet before you begin the process of sewing. This makes the job much easier.

I use artificial sinew or heavy waxed thread and a big o'l carpet needle. The holes for the thread are prepunched using the distance between links as a guide to the spacing. The holes for the vervelles must also be punched prior to sewing since you may want to attach the leather as you go. This makes sewing the base ( or cape) of the aventail a breeze. This trick also works for the facial triangles, but I find myself dismounting the leathers at this juncture from time-to-time to more easily get at sewing holes. (Its okay, the leather will slip right back on.)

The hardest part is the facial. Make sure that the links lie flat and you don't "twist" them so they stand up when you sew them in place. Just watch the grain and everything will work out all right.

I've used Mac's twin triangles to make three facials. One for an aventail I built one link at a time and three for some ready made aventails. Tailoring the triangles is not very difficult; it just takes a bit of time and a lot of patience. (Especially if you're new to tailoring riveted mail.) This is something youâ€™ll have to do with the current batch of riveted mail, nobody sells them with the facial triangles in place.

Take care,

AcW

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue May 27, 2008 7:20 pm

I see from the view numbers, that a lot of people are looking at this thread, but there hasn't been a lot of talk.

May I assume that you are all busy re-tailoring the faces of your aventails?

Mac

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Tue May 27, 2008 7:27 pm

Mac wrote:I see from the view numbers, that a lot of people are looking at this thread, but there hasn't been a lot of talk.

May I assume that you are all busy re-tailoring the faces of your aventails?

Mac

[/lurk]not here, just listening intently with both eyes :wink:

[lurk]

How to deal with maille around face-Aventail

How to deal with maille around face-Aventail

Hold on, Klaus and Gaston...