Gold leaf leather case finished

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:45 pm

This is a case I was making for Karen Larsdatter. It's based off of a case for a book that she has up on her site. France, early 16th century....

Just thought I'd post a few pics.

Cat

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747693/kc2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747693/kc3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747693/kc4.jpg[/img]

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:47 pm

2 more, plus one of the original.

Cat

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747693/kc5.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747693/kc8.jpg[/img]

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:51 pm

Very Pretty!

Corey D. Sullivan · Post by **Corey D. Sullivan** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:39 pm

Wow. That is beyond words...

So, what do the KGH stand for?

Hjlmr inn Danski · Post by **Hjlmr inn Danski** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:44 pm

Greetings,

Drool.

When are you gonna post a tutorial on these cases, Cat?

Hjlmr inn Danski

Barnet · Post by **Barnet** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:45 pm

Wow, everyone you do seems to get even better and better, very nice. -barnet

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:58 pm

Thanks so much guys!

The KGH is Karen's initials. I didn't know if she was in the SCA or anything, so I just thought I'd use her real initials.

A tutorial is probably a long way off. I am still developing ways to make these better, and to make them look more like the originals. I've got a few things I want to try, and many designs based on originals that I want to do. I figure it will be many months before I have things worked out. It sure would help if I could see some in person, but I don't think there are any in the museums close to me. In fact, I don't think there are any museums in Columbus that have any medieval items at all.

Thanks again!
Cat

AriAnson · Post by **AriAnson** » Sun May 25, 2008 3:02 am

I love this piece a lot!

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Sun May 25, 2008 3:24 am

Nice!

FWIW, the Cleveland museum of art has a pretty decent medieval collection. Well worth the trip from Columbus. I don't know if they have leather cases though (you can search their collection online.)

-Donasian.

justus · Post by **justus** » Sun May 25, 2008 11:12 am

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/syrjustus/2521680314/" title="kc8 by Justus Koshiol, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/2521680314_e157aa0122_o.jpg" width="360" height="303" alt="kc8"></a>

I LOVE this detail.

I do have a question, it looks like the ends of the threads are knotted on top of the case, is that a period technique?

-Justus

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:03 pm

Honestly, I don't know how the stitching was done on these. I can't tell from the pictures I have, but it doesn't look like the originals have much visible stitching at all. I HATE the stitching on mine - it stands out like a sore thumb and I think it detracts from the overall look, but I don't know how else to do it.

I knotted the stitching on top of the lid just to kep it consistent with the bottom. The bottom part is too deep to get my hands in there to tie the knot on the inside, so I had to tie it on the outside. I will probably start knotting the lid stitching on the inside though, since it's more visible and because I can usually get my hands in there.

That corner seam is also something I hate. I think I need to move to some thinner leather for these because I think that will reduce the appearance of the seam and hopefully make the case look less bulky.

I really wish I could hold an original in my hands. I think that may clarify alot of issues for me.

Cat

justus · Post by **justus** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:35 pm

I was not being critical at all, I love this piece. I just thought maybe you had seen that on the original.

I think you stitching is fine, I just wondered if they didn't do back stitching in period. I actually know very little about period leather working technique, I learned from a book written in the 70's (great book by the way) And it's oldest references were to 19th century technique.

The only thing I would do different is to either tie the ends off on the inside of the piece, or back stitch a three or four spaces and cut the ends of short on the inside. A little wax and they will bed down with the stitching line and disappear.

-Justus

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sun May 25, 2008 4:25 pm

Is it possible for you to miter the leather so that it mates and then using a curved needle blind-stitch it? In this regard, thickness of leather would be your friend.

I know that I have many articles that could be well-served by such cases, for example glass articles and cutlery and pottery and small implements and so forth.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun May 25, 2008 5:14 pm

Justus,
I know you weren't being critical.

I was just being critical of myself. I might try back stitching to eliminate the knots. I think sheath makers use the same technique, but I didn't really trust it. I could probably leave the thread long after I back stitched, and glue it down on the inside.

Jehan,
Yes, I could probably mitre the edges, but the problem is that I never know exactly where the edges are going to meet up until I start stitching and sometimes they need adjusting. I try to get the edges to butt together, but when I stitch it, it makes the seam pucker out.

I don't think I could blind stitch these as they are sewn around a form.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix the problems, but switching to thinner leather may make it look better. Maybe the seams on the original pucker too, but are less obvious because the leather is thinner.

I dunno....more trial and error is needed.

Cat

justus · Post by **justus** » Sun May 25, 2008 5:27 pm

If you back stitch four spaces it will never come undone. Ever.

Evah.

But you can always try and experiment and see if you can pull the seam apart. From my experience I think it would hold with just two backstitches, four will stand the test of time.

You can cut the thread off very close to the seam and the ends will blend right in. I always bring both threads out on the inside/underside and cut them off level. A little wax and they're gone.

There are a couple of ways to sew a square corner that I can see if I can diagram if you are interested.

-Justus

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun May 25, 2008 7:53 pm

Justus,
Any bit of advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Cat

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sun May 25, 2008 8:44 pm

If you back stitch four spaces it will never come undone. Ever.

Moreso if you hit the "hidden" part with super glue....

-+G

AEiric Orvender · Post by **AEiric Orvender** » Tue May 27, 2008 9:14 am

Rev. George wrote:If you back stitch four spaces it will never come undone. Ever.

Moreso if you hit the "hidden" part with super glue....

-+G

When I finish a saddle stich I go past the end stich one more time crossing the needles through the thread... locking the thread then add 2 mor stiches and a drop of glue where the threads lock... never had a problem yet.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Tue May 27, 2008 10:57 am

Cat wrote:Honestly, I don't know how the stitching was done on these. I can't tell from the pictures I have, but it doesn't look like the originals have much visible stitching at all. I HATE the stitching on mine - it stands out like a sore thumb and I think it detracts from the overall look, but I don't know how else to do it.

I have it on good authority that many of them are not stitched on the outside. The outer layers seem to have been glued in place over the stitched inner layers.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:56 am

Talbot wrote:I have it on good authority that many of them are not stitched on the outside. The outer layers seem to have been glued in place over the stitched inner layers.

Purses in Pieces shows many examples the other way around; inner layers are glued and the outside stitched. Often the stitching is just a simple running stitch in the same places as Cat is sewng her examples up.

The main thing I see is they don't use split holds often they used stab stitches and then they cut the leather down to be flush with the stitch line. You can see what I mean on this example:

Also if you look at this image at the bottom you can see the stitching where the stripes are; that the the turned side of the leather where the stab stitching is:

[img]http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI01695a04a.jpg[/img]

Also here on this beaker case; at the top:

[img]http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI01695a05a.jpg[/img]

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue May 27, 2008 12:02 pm

What did you put over the gilding to protect it?

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Tue May 27, 2008 12:27 pm

Very interesting...Yes, I could glue the outer leather around the inner piece on the botoom half of the case, but the lid portion doesn't have an inner layer that I'm aware of.

The top of the case that James pictured has a wavy edge along the lines where I would normally stitch mine. I don't recall seeing stitching holes on it, so I wonder if the top of the lid was glued on. If it was, there isn't much leather underneath to glue it to. I'm using 1/8" thick leather, and these appear to be even thinner than that.

The side seam on that one does seem to pucker a bit, so maybe that's the way it's supposed to be. Since it appears to be thinner leather, maybe that's why it's less noticeable.

James,
I'm not sure what you mean by "split holds". Can you explain that a bit? I'm thinking stab stitching is just poking holes and sewing, and I'm assuming you mean they layed a piece over the op of the case, leaving the edges hang over, stitching down into the leather underneath and then trimming. Is that what you mean? If that's so, then that top piece seems to be made of much thinner leather than the rest of the case (with the exception of maybe the piece on the very bottom).

Vitus,
I used a varnish for oil and acrylic paintings to seal the leaf. They were out of the gold leaf sealer, and this stuff seemed similar.

Thanks for the help guys!
Cat

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Tue May 27, 2008 12:41 pm

beautifull case Cat. I'm way impressed by it. Your tooling makes me jealous.

Since we are talking construction and stitches here, I'll add my two cents in. One thing I notice in some of the pictures like the one James posted is there is a wave to the seam, that I take to be just a single running stab stitch not a interlocking or doubled stitch, a simple stab stitch will pull the leather back and forth dependent on wich side the stitch is on. Other thing that was mentioned was sewing it over a form, I know on mine what I did was glued together the inner layers over a form then cut and measured the outer layer, I thin stitched it together and soaked then streached it over the glued inner layers Once over the inner layers then I did the tooling while the leather was still damp.

Brian

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Tue May 27, 2008 12:59 pm

Brian,
Thanks for the tips and kind comments! I could not figure out how they got that wavy edge, and what you mentioned makes alot of sense!

I've got lots of new tricks to try now.

I'm excited about experimenting. (Just wish I had time

).

Thanks again!
Cat

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Tue May 27, 2008 1:21 pm

From Marc Carlson's site (http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... OEHOME.HTM)

[quote]Split Hold (also informally referred to as â€œMaking a split passageâ€

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Tue May 27, 2008 1:34 pm

Ahhh...you meant tunnel stitching. That was what I thought they may have done, but I can't see how they could get their hands in there to do it. If they were stitching around a form, I think it would be almost impossible to stitch from the back side (the side that's facing the form). Even if they stitched it before it went around the form, it would be hard to get your hand down inside the case to do the stitching.

On those cases with the wavy edged top - can any of you see stitching holes on the outside of the case? I cant see it, so that kinda makes me think maybe the top was tunnel stitched. Although it still seems like it would be hard to get your hands/needles in there to do it. UNLESS....I just remembered something - threading the needle onto a boar bristle. Maybe that's how they did it! I need to try that....

Cat

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:09 pm

I cut a section of the 3rd case I posted and drew a red lin over the stitches; look at the original and you can see them. The leather is really thick.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:31 pm

Beaker cases. I could use some of those.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:27 pm

James B. wrote:I cut a section of the 3rd case I posted and drew a red lin over the stitches; look at the original and you can see them. The leather is really thick.

I think what we're looking at here is a mitered edge, where the wall and the top are both skived on the flesh side to about a 45 degree angle, and then the stitches run through at 90 degrees to that join, pulling the two pieces of leather together.

The mitered edge would likely be glued as well, to hold the leather in place for stitiching and to help seal the seam.

Modern construction would probably recommend a bit of rubber cement for holding the leather whilst the stitching was being done.

audax · Post by **audax** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:04 pm

Wow.

justus · Post by **justus** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:48 pm

James B. wrote:I cut a section of the 3rd case I posted and drew a red lin over the stitches; look at the original and you can see them. The leather is really thick.

What do you think about this possibility?

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/syrjustus/2528863123/" title="lid by Justus Koshiol, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2273/2528863123_c9f20785df_o.jpg" width="659" height="565" alt="lid"></a>

This would be a flat lid sewn into the circle of the side fo the top, something like a mason jar, with the stitches forming a welt.

-Justus

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue May 27, 2008 7:36 pm

Syr Justus, I like the idea, but would suggest that the top edge shown in your drawing doesn't appear visibly evident in the photo. If that edge were skived and then burnished (even perhaps glued and burnished) it could pretty well disappear from view.

justus · Post by **justus** » Tue May 27, 2008 8:13 pm

You know what, I think you are right. I was studying the close up that I posted, but looking at the whole piece again I think what I was seeing is an illusion. Couldn't see the forest for the trees if you will.

-Justus

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Tue May 27, 2008 8:22 pm

Cat wrote:Ahhh...you meant tunnel stitching. That was what I thought they may have done, but I can't see how they could get their hands in there to do it. If they were stitching around a form, I think it would be almost impossible to stitch from the back side (the side that's facing the form). Even if they stitched it before it went around the form, it would be hard to get your hand down inside the case to do the stitching.

On those cases with the wavy edged top - can any of you see stitching holes on the outside of the case? I cant see it, so that kinda makes me think maybe the top was tunnel stitched. Although it still seems like it would be hard to get your hands/needles in there to do it. UNLESS....I just remembered something - threading the needle onto a boar bristle. Maybe that's how they did it! I need to try that....

Cat

Okay.. through long practice with this.. I _think_ the solution is to KNOW YOUR PATTERN, and work in wet leather.. pre-punch with an awl, and stitch with a bristle.. and leave it _loose_ until it's done being stitched.

Then you'd very slowly and tediously pull the thread through, to tighten up the stitches across the form.

At least, that's the only way I can think to do it.. I know doing the "punch, thread, tighten, punch, thread, tighten" doesn't work.