A thought or two

[Mord]

I have decided that the equipment I use for fighting, with a few exceptions, is not armor. Instead I will call this stuff "gear." I am trying to make gear which by as unobtrusive as possible.


My reasons behind this thinking has to do with looking at early medieval mail. Lots of folks are convinced that most of the warriors of this period had mail or something else. True, in some places fragments of mail and other body armors have been found. Most of these sites, however, a social hierarchy where wealth and prestige was discernable. Such ideas as the distrubution of mail has not, to my knowledge, been done. In other words, while some spectacular examples have been found, we have no idea just how mail armor was distrubed during the time.

What we do know is that, at least for the Carolingians, mail was an expensive item. S. Coupland tells us that a body armor (which was probably mail--but that is another line of thinking) costs 12 soldi (probably silver) and that people with 12 mansi of land were required to have a full kit, including a body armor. The cost of a sword was 5 or 6 soldi, and it costed 2 soldi for a spear and shield.

Carolingian body armors were expensive. Only the wealthiest and the most favored had access to it.

The reason for this expense, I suspect, was the labor involved in making the stuff. The wire must be drawn, turned into rings, prepared to linked and then linked. As much as I have my doubts that one person would have done all these tasks, I also have no proof that the labor was divided in a semi-industrial/semi-workshop environment. Either way, it cannot be doubted that mail was expensive. (read D. Tweedle's book the Coppergate Helm about mail making)

That being so, I would think that a 10th century Icelander would not have owned mail. Simply put, he would not have been able to afford the stuff. A good sword or other weapon would have been cheaper and more useful.

Mord.

[Sean Powell]

That being so, I would think that a 10th century Icelander would not have owned mail. Simply put, he would not have been able to afford the stuff. A good sword or other weapon would have been cheaper and more useful.

Mord.

Well you know more about 10th century Icelanders then just about anyone I know but you are also a KSCA. Just for playing devils advocate: Is there a class or station in 10th century Iceland that is roughly equivilent to a 14th century knight? And how would a warrior of his class and station, who had survived multiple battles, including pick of the gear of the fallen equip himself to best survive his next battle?

I don't doubt that the *average* 10th century Icelander couldn't easily afford maile but are you attempting to be average, or higher then average?

Sean

[Mord]

That being so, I would think that a 10th century Icelander would not have owned mail. Simply put, he would not have been able to afford the stuff. A good sword or other weapon would have been cheaper and more useful.

Mord.

Well you know more about 10th century Icelanders then just about anyone I know but you are also a KSCA. Just for playing devils advocate: Is there a class or station in 10th century Iceland that is roughly equivilent to a 14th century knight? And how would a warrior of his class and station, who had survived multiple battles, including pick of the gear of the fallen equip himself to best survive his next battle?

I don't doubt that the *average* 10th century Icelander couldn't easily afford maile but are you attempting to be average, or higher then average?

Sean

Not an illogical question at all.

Iceland was colonized in the late 9th and early 10th century, mostly by Norwegians, but there may have been some people from Ireland. Until 930 or so, the place didn't even have an apparatus for government. After 930, the form of government choosen by the residents was non-royal--the "Althing" assembly. In fact, one of the reasons Iceland converted to Christianity was so they wouldn't be invaded by Olaf Tryggvasson, King of Norway.

The people who immigrated were not nobility, they were rather well-to-do farmers--"Bondi" is the word--at best. Unlike many of the other so-called viking colonization movements, Iceland became a series of farming homesteads, instead of settlement around a semi-fortified trading towns(like Dublin, Hedeby, etc) run by a lord and his men. Once the Icelanders formed a government of assembly, they chose the most wealth to run it--these people were called "Gothi."

The relationship of the Icelanders with other nations and their royalty was complex and based upon a sortof "most favored trade" statis. Connections with Norway, especially, were kept not simply for family reasons but also for the trade of necessary goods. The Icelanders offered the Norwegans, Danes, and other partners (such as the English), such things as dried fish, furs, birds (the falcon-trade was very lucrative), wool fabric, and service. The Norwegians, etc gave them lumber, iron (tho' it has been proven through archaeology that the Icelanders smelted bog iron at certain times), or whatever domestic goods that were rare in Iceland.

Put briefly, no Icelander was noble. There is no equalvalent between a knight (14th C or otherwise) and an Icelandic. And tho' Iceland was not always the most peaceful land, it was mostly a farming country, with a method of resolving feuds--note the fact that Holmganga Fights were to the first blood. Mail or any other armor, except a shield (with boss) was a luxury that few if anyone could afford.

Mord.

[Sean Powell]

Sounds like you've got all the pieces to fit then. I personally find it wonderful to be able to pin-point a time and place and say "That, I want to be THAT" rather then a vague time period or kludging something that goes well with a particular helm...

So when are you going to post pics of your 10th cent Icelandic combat kit?

Sean

[Mord]

Sounds like you've got all the pieces to fit then. I personally find it wonderful to be able to pin-point a time and place and say "That, I want to be THAT" rather then a vague time period or kludging something that goes well with a particular helm...

So when are you going to post pics of your 10th cent Icelandic combat kit?

Sean

To answer the first question, "soon."

In my mind, I haven't "fit all the peices together." Of course some peices are missing (like mail). As much as I have an understanding of the social and political situation in Iceland, the real problem is understanding the nature of trade and contact with the outside world.

What this involves as far as the use of mail (or any other armor) by Icelanders is purely circumstancial evidence. This evidence includes:

--Iron Production in Iceland.

--Iron Production in Norway.

--Iron Production in Carolingian Frankia

--Carolingian cartularies (laws), etc., about the arms and armor production and distrubion.

--What we know about the making of mail.

--Speculation about the making of mail in Europe and Scandinavia.

--Material listing of examination of found mail from the period, possibly with a distrubution map.

Mord.

[Baron Alejandro]

Hey mord! Why is this here? It should go to Medieval combat or some such. Can I move it? I won't if you'd prefer it here.

[Mord]

Hey mord! Why is this here? It should go to Medieval combat or some such. Can I move it? I won't if you'd prefer it here.

Go ahead and move it if you think it appropriate.


These are just the droppings of what I'm currently thinking about, which is why posted it here.

Mord.

[Baron Alejandro]

Bud, LOTS AND LOTS of people are interested in what you're thinking. Seriously. You remember that scene in that Star Trek movie where Kirk tells Spock that Spock's blind hypotheses are better than most people's well-researched solid answers? Yeah, you're the 'spock' of armour.

And a lot of people don't come down here, it deserves more exposure. I'm going to put this to 'historical research'.

Thanks.

[mordreth]

So what did you do in your wild youth to acquire the resources to establish a prosperous farm?
Jarl Hakon has one spear he cherishes, his story is that it come back from one raid wrapped in gold chain which provided him the money for a good farm

[Mord]

So what did you do in your wild youth to acquire the resources to establish a prosperous farm?
Jarl Hakon has one spear he cherishes, his story is that it come back from one raid wrapped in gold chain which provided him the money for a good farm

What did I do in my mis-spent youth? Well, of course, I traded and raided the goofy Saxon shores! Got enough silver for a good sword, an ax, and the fitting for a shield. I also got some sparkily doo-dads that impressed the neighbors back home.

My father established a farm when I was a kid. I inherited part of it.

Mord.

[mordreth]

There ya go then - I don't wear a suit too often as a consultant, but they're still hanging in the closet.
Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

[Kilkenny]

Hey mord! Why is this here? It should go to Medieval combat or some such. Can I move it? I won't if you'd prefer it here.

Go ahead and move it if you think it appropriate.


These are just the droppings of what I'm currently thinking about, which is why posted it here.

Mord.

Mord fewmets! Kewl

[Mord]

There ya go then - I don't wear a suit too often as a consultant, but they're still hanging in the closet.
Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

Not really. Couldn't afford mail--too expensive. Go back and read my first couple of posts where a Carolingian byrnie costs 12 soldi. A sword was considerably cheaper.

I can document swords, axes and shield fittings to Iceland (check "Kuml og Hauge", a catalog of the 10th century grave findings), but I can't document a mail body armor. In fact, I can't document mail at all to Iceland.

I've heard lots of speculation about the lack of mail, from it being passed down through the generations to the iron rusting out in graves. I can get into a real argument about the validity of these arguments, but as I've stated, I haven't put all the peices together to my satisfaction.

I strongly suspect that as far as the Carolingians were concerned, mail was held by those folks/institutions wealthy enough to afford it. This would be the Noblity and the large monastic manors, who also, btw, were probably responsible for manking the stuff, since most the large iron smelting furnaces were located at parts of monasteries.

Gotta go...

Mord.

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

There ya go then - I don't wear a suit too often as a consultant, but they're still hanging in the closet.
Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

Not really. Couldn't afford mail--too expensive. Go back and read my first couple of posts where a Carolingian byrnie costs 12 soldi. A sword was considerably cheaper.

I can document swords, axes and shield fittings to Iceland (check "Kuml og Hauge", a catalog of the 10th century grave findings), but I can't document a mail body armor. In fact, I can't document mail at all to Iceland.

I've heard lots of speculation about the lack of mail, from it being passed down through the generations to the iron rusting out in graves. I can get into a real argument about the validity of these arguments, but as I've stated, I haven't put all the peices together to my satisfaction.

I strongly suspect that as far as the Carolingians were concerned, mail was held by those folks/institutions wealthy enough to afford it. This would be the Noblity and the large monastic manors, who also, btw, were probably responsible for manking the stuff, since most the large iron smelting furnaces were located at parts of monasteries.

Gotta go...

Mord.

As an Icelander who lives abroad I love visiting the history museum when I go home. There has been mail found in Iceland and its on display. If you haven't already read some of the Icelandic sagas. They were written much later but they do give us some insight into how things happened then (Njal's saga happens at the end of the 10th century and is a great read). If you need a way to justify having mail but not being able to afford it think about service. A land owner in Iceland during the time you are speaking of could volunteer his combat skills upon a ship (usually a trade ship) and end up in other Norse ruled parts. Here he could serve under a lord for a while gaining much fame (if he was good, maybe even enough that the lord gave him expensive gifts, possibly mail). Such things happen in the Sagas. Or of course taken from a slain enemy who is NOT an Icelander and was able to afford mail. Iceland's most famed weapon (Atgeir, a spear with an axe head as well) was taken by Gunnar of Hlidarend while he was serving a Norwegian lord by hunting down pirates (vikings). Just a couple of ideas, I would say some Icelanders of the time would have mail, of course since they now had mail they would become powerful figures in Iceland.

[Mord]

There ya go then - I don't wear a suit too often as a consultant, but they're still hanging in the closet.
Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

Not really. Couldn't afford mail--too expensive. Go back and read my first couple of posts where a Carolingian byrnie costs 12 soldi. A sword was considerably cheaper.

I can document swords, axes and shield fittings to Iceland (check "Kuml og Hauge", a catalog of the 10th century grave findings), but I can't document a mail body armor. In fact, I can't document mail at all to Iceland.

I've heard lots of speculation about the lack of mail, from it being passed down through the generations to the iron rusting out in graves. I can get into a real argument about the validity of these arguments, but as I've stated, I haven't put all the peices together to my satisfaction.

I strongly suspect that as far as the Carolingians were concerned, mail was held by those folks/institutions wealthy enough to afford it. This would be the Noblity and the large monastic manors, who also, btw, were probably responsible for manking the stuff, since most the large iron smelting furnaces were located at parts of monasteries.

Gotta go...

Mord.

As an Icelander who lives abroad I love visiting the history museum when I go home. There has been mail found in Iceland and its on display. If you haven't already read some of the Icelandic sagas. They were written much later but they do give us some insight into how things happened then (Njal's saga happens at the end of the 10th century and is a great read). If you need a way to justify having mail but not being able to afford it think about service. A land owner in Iceland during the time you are speaking of could volunteer his combat skills upon a ship (usually a trade ship) and end up in other Norse ruled parts. Here he could serve under a lord for a while gaining much fame (if he was good, maybe even enough that the lord gave him expensive gifts, possibly mail). Such things happen in the Sagas. Or of course taken from a slain enemy who is NOT an Icelander and was able to afford mail. Iceland's most famed weapon (Atgeir, a spear with an axe head as well) was taken by Gunnar of Hlidarend while he was serving a Norwegian lord by hunting down pirates (vikings). Just a couple of ideas, I would say some Icelanders of the time would have mail, of course since they now had mail they would become powerful figures in Iceland.

I have a collection of the Sagas at home. It was a passage in Egil's Saga that got me thinking about the use of mail. In the part where Egil and his brother, Thorolf, fight Aethelstan, King of the Angles, it's specifically noticed that they aren't wearing mail. Thorolf, btw, kills an important enemy who is in mail, and it seems that Aethelstan was wearing the stuff.

But your right, I will have to look at the Sagas (even if they are dodgy historical fictions) in order to see how much mail is mentioned.

Also, Mordreth, you may be right. However, I haven't seen anyone examine early medieval mail with any sense of skepticism. The crux of the matter, as far as I can see, is who had the ability and resources to make mail and other body armors (like lamellar). This is, basically, a question of economics, something which many an archaeologist (Hodder, Hodges & Wickam) is investigating.

Be that as it may, I suspect that pulling all the strings into line may be a struggle.

Mord.

[Ned Chaney]

My Guard unit was sent to Iceland on an extended AT in 2000. We sent two Chinooks over via C5 and rotated teams thru there for two months that summer. My one regret in my Guard career is that I opted to pull the plug and retire that year. I could have had a free trip to Iceland.

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

There ya go then - I don't wear a suit too often as a consultant, but they're still hanging in the closet.
Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

Not really. Couldn't afford mail--too expensive. Go back and read my first couple of posts where a Carolingian byrnie costs 12 soldi. A sword was considerably cheaper.

I can document swords, axes and shield fittings to Iceland (check "Kuml og Hauge", a catalog of the 10th century grave findings), but I can't document a mail body armor. In fact, I can't document mail at all to Iceland.

I've heard lots of speculation about the lack of mail, from it being passed down through the generations to the iron rusting out in graves. I can get into a real argument about the validity of these arguments, but as I've stated, I haven't put all the peices together to my satisfaction.

I strongly suspect that as far as the Carolingians were concerned, mail was held by those folks/institutions wealthy enough to afford it. This would be the Noblity and the large monastic manors, who also, btw, were probably responsible for manking the stuff, since most the large iron smelting furnaces were located at parts of monasteries.

Gotta go...

Mord.

As an Icelander who lives abroad I love visiting the history museum when I go home. There has been mail found in Iceland and its on display. If you haven't already read some of the Icelandic sagas. They were written much later but they do give us some insight into how things happened then (Njal's saga happens at the end of the 10th century and is a great read). If you need a way to justify having mail but not being able to afford it think about service. A land owner in Iceland during the time you are speaking of could volunteer his combat skills upon a ship (usually a trade ship) and end up in other Norse ruled parts. Here he could serve under a lord for a while gaining much fame (if he was good, maybe even enough that the lord gave him expensive gifts, possibly mail). Such things happen in the Sagas. Or of course taken from a slain enemy who is NOT an Icelander and was able to afford mail. Iceland's most famed weapon (Atgeir, a spear with an axe head as well) was taken by Gunnar of Hlidarend while he was serving a Norwegian lord by hunting down pirates (vikings). Just a couple of ideas, I would say some Icelanders of the time would have mail, of course since they now had mail they would become powerful figures in Iceland.

I have a collection of the Sagas at home. It was a passage in Egil's Saga that got me thinking about the use of mail. In the part where Egil and his brother, Thorolf, fight Aethelstan, King of the Angles, it's specifically noticed that they aren't wearing mail. Thorolf, btw, kills an important enemy who is in mail, and it seems that Aethelstan was wearing the stuff.

But your right, I will have to look at the Sagas (even if they are dodgy historical fictions) in order to see how much mail is mentioned.

Also, Mordreth, you may be right. However, I haven't seen anyone examine early medieval mail with any sense of skepticism. The crux of the matter, as far as I can see, is who had the ability and resources to make mail and other body armors (like lamellar). This is, basically, a question of economics, something which many an archaeologist (Hodder, Hodges & Wickam) is investigating.

Be that as it may, I suspect that pulling all the strings into line may be a struggle.

Mord.

I do agree with you, the Icelanders often don't fight in mail, but neither do their opponents in Iceland. That being said its not unthinkable that an Icelander may have mail. Even as a colony there were powerful land owners and many people did leave the country and return after adventure. The Saga's probably have quite a bit of fiction in them but it seems likely they are based around real events, and the characters are all real people. Just for fun I learned a little fact recently after reading Njal's Saga. On the Icelandic genealogy website I traced my relation to Gizur the White (a chieftain during the time of the Saga) and I'm a direct descendant.

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

My Guard unit was sent to Iceland on an extended AT in 2000. We sent two Chinooks over via C5 and rotated teams thru there for two months that summer. My one regret in my Guard career is that I opted to pull the plug and retire that year. I could have had a free trip to Iceland.

That is a shame, it is quite beautiful. I remember seeing Blackhawks flying around occasionally when I went hiking near the army base as a child. Never saw a Chinook.

[Halvgrimr]

Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

Now if we could just get folks to reexamine this bit of nonsense:)

Admittedly I used to take stock in the old sea chest thinkology

Then I spent several tours in the North Atlantic on a small ship by Navy standards but large in comparison to the average longship (FFG's for those wondering)

In no way would "mobile seating" work in the some of the more exciting waves that sort of just 'appear' from no where out in the deep ocean

Sorry Mord, not trying to derail your thread
Interesting stuff

I once read an article that was argueing the actual number of mail shirts that was sent back (to York?) as loot after the Battle of Stamford Bridge.

Some official documents claimed in was a low number (I want to say 100) but the person writing the article claimed this number to be missing one zero (ie 1000)

Wish I had noted the publication and author:(
It might contain something that would benifit your thinking on mails availablity at that point in time (but alas wouldnt be much good for your Icelandic perspective)

[Mord]

Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

Now if we could just get folks to reexamine this bit of nonsense:)

Admittedly I used to take stock in the old sea chest thinkology

Then I spent several tours in the North Atlantic on a small ship by Navy standards but large in comparison to the average longship (FFG's for those wondering)

In no way would "mobile seating" work in the some of the more exciting waves that sort of just 'appear' from no where out in the deep ocean

Sorry Mord, not trying to derail your thread
Interesting stuff

I once read an article that was argueing the actual number of mail shirts that was sent back (to York?) as loot after the Battle of Stamford Bridge.

Some official documents claimed in was a low number (I want to say 100) but the person writing the article claimed this number to be missing one zero (ie 1000)

Wish I had noted the publication and author:(
It might contain something that would benifit your thinking on mails availablity at that point in time (but alas wouldnt be much good for your Icelandic perspective)

Actually, I would welcome such a citation as this. Direct evidence of the survival/use/existance of mail would be very useful in general. Right now, I'm approaching this subject (and the subject of mail in the early MA in general) via circumstancial means.

Sure, there's examples of mail from the period, but info of the distribution of mail is a bit different.

Mord

[Halvgrimr]

Actually, I would welcome such a citation as this.

Let me see if I can scare up a source for you

[Mord]

Actually, I would welcome such a citation as this.

Let me see if I can scare up a source for you

Thanks.

Mord.

[Ancel fitzCharles]

I'm interested in what you will be fighting in; obsiously some form of hidden armor under clothing. I'm working on an unarmoured look for conquest-era Norman (frankly I will have better use for a morgage payment sized chunk of money for the forseeable future), and would like some ideas.
Ancel

[Mord]

I'm interested in what you will be fighting in; obsiously some form of hidden armor under clothing. I'm working on an unarmoured look for conquest-era Norman (frankly I will have better use for a morgage payment sized chunk of money for the forseeable future), and would like some ideas.
Ancel

I assuming you're talking about SCA fighting? I've been working on hidden gear for the last couple of months. My leg protection was already hidden, and I've just finished my body protection out of barrel plastic (there's a car-wash at the end of my block). Also, a couple of years ago I finally figured out how to make a center grip round shield that last more than a couple of practices.

Still, improvements have to made. My arm protection is pretty obvious (sole leather pusedo-bazubans), and I use a basket for my swords. My helmet is conical.

Btw, see if you can find the Stenton's book on the Bayeux Tapestry. The chapter on arms and armor is by JG Mann.

Mord.

[justus]

Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

Now if we could just get folks to reexamine this bit of nonsense:)

Admittedly I used to take stock in the old sea chest thinkology

Then I spent several tours in the North Atlantic on a small ship by Navy standards but large in comparison to the average longship (FFG's for those wondering)

In no way would "mobile seating" work in the some of the more exciting waves that sort of just 'appear' from no where out in the deep ocean

You are saying that as if it were impossible to lash something down aboard a ship.

-Justus

[Halvgrimr]

Your byrnie and helmet would probably be in your ship bench / chest

Now if we could just get folks to reexamine this bit of nonsense:)

Admittedly I used to take stock in the old sea chest thinkology

Then I spent several tours in the North Atlantic on a small ship by Navy standards but large in comparison to the average longship (FFG's for those wondering)

In no way would "mobile seating" work in the some of the more exciting waves that sort of just 'appear' from no where out in the deep ocean

You are saying that as if it were impossible to lash something down aboard a ship.

-Justus

No, im saying that as somone who knows that ships have been found that have built in bench seats

Once a shipbuilder has mastered the art of building a complex thing like a longship i think that its well within their means to add basic benchs

I think the sea chest is a reenactor-ism that allows folks to be maurading warriors while still allowing them the chests they would have had back at home to store their stuff

[justus]

The problem with affixed benches in a small craft is that it limits what else you can do with that space. Of course they could have built benches, I'm not disputing that at all. But I think dismissing a chest seat because it would slide around on a pitching deck is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

To me it is like the decking in some of these boats that was essentially not affixed and could be moved or taken up as the need arose. I believe flexibility of purpose was a necessity with these relatively small vessels.

-Justus

[Halvgrimr]

The problem with affixed benches in a small craft is that it limits what else you can do with that space. Of course they could have built benches, I'm not disputing that at all. But I think dismissing a chest seat because it would slide around on a pitching deck is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

To me it is like the decking in some of these boats that was essentially not affixed and could be moved or taken up as the need arose. I believe flexibility of purpose was a necessity with these relatively small vessels.

-Justus

Ah, a fundemental flaw in our 'debate'
Im talking larger sea faring ships that crossed the rough North Atlantic
I THINK your talking about smaller shallow water vessels
Im not to sure many small vessels made it to the waters in which I originally was refering too

I will admit I am not a ship expert and that my opinions are based on personal experiences

I just dont buy into the 'everyone on the boat had a chest and used it to row from" theory

Not to mention sitting on a seachest for more than an hours give one a real case of 'flat ass' so id hate to think about sitting on one the entire time from Norway to Greenland:)

[Mord]

The problem with affixed benches in a small craft is that it limits what else you can do with that space. Of course they could have built benches, I'm not disputing that at all. But I think dismissing a chest seat because it would slide around on a pitching deck is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

To me it is like the decking in some of these boats that was essentially not affixed and could be moved or taken up as the need arose. I believe flexibility of purpose was a necessity with these relatively small vessels.

-Justus

Ah, a fundemental flaw in our 'debate'
Im talking larger sea faring ships that crossed the rough North Atlantic
I THINK your talking about smaller shallow water vessels
Im not to sure many small vessels made it to the waters in which I originally was refering too

I will admit I am not a ship expert and that my opinions are based on personal experiences

I just dont buy into the 'everyone on the boat had a chest and used it to row from" theory

Not to mention sitting on a seachest for more than an hours give one a real case of 'flat ass' so id hate to think about sitting on one the entire time from Norway to Greenland:)

If I remember correctly, one of the ships found in Roskilde was a "knorr" or "cnearr." This sort of klinker built ship was wider in gerth and probably had a deeper draft. The knorr was a ship for frieght and trade, as opposed to a ship specifically made for war. All this proves is that the Scandinavians of the Early Middle Ages built different ships/boats for different purposes.

But in fact, we have really very little material info on the subject. There's the Gokstad and Oseberg ships found in Norway and the ships found in Roskilde. Each ship, while similar in construction, had different features for its use.

I suspect the good Cap't Atli has more info on ships.

In other news, I just found another article on mail making experiments--this time Roman mail. I have yet to really adsorb this info, but I think it will make for some interesting comparisons.

Mord.

[Andrew Young]

Mord

At the risk of sounding like something from the 70s or 80s....what about butted mail in Iceland.

Cheap, easier to make, relatively adequate for its needs.

And while I would normally poo poo the idea of butted mail, would it not plausibly be something for a lower class man, lost to history only because it was easily "recycled" later.

Although there are no rivets, Im just taking a stab at it.

[Konstantin the Red]

Uh, if the fella in the butted mail gets a stab taken at him, he's lost to history.

[Mord]

Mord

At the risk of sounding like something from the 70s or 80s....what about butted mail in Iceland.

Cheap, easier to make, relatively adequate for its needs.

And while I would normally poo poo the idea of butted mail, would it not plausibly be something for a lower class man, lost to history only because it was easily "recycled" later.

Although there are no rivets, Im just taking a stab at it.

I've read (briefly) about butted mail being used, so poo-pooing it isn't out of the realm of possibility. Butted mail was mentioned somewhere, but not really explored. Yes, it would be cheaper to make. Conversely, I've not heard of any examples.

The recycling of mail (no matter what the form) is one of the reasons for looking at iron production and the iron trade in general.

Mord.

[Kilkenny]

Uh, if the fella in the butted mail gets a stab taken at him, he's lost to history.

"ahh, young Ingvar, you can't wear that butted mail into battle, it's not nearly good enough protection. Take it off and get into the fray, boy!"

hmm ?

Sure, riveted is better than butted, however, I'm pretty certain butted is better than skin.

[Glen K]

Not to mention sitting on a seachest for more than an hours give one a real case of 'flat ass'...

That's why "vikings" evolved into Normans once they had invented the purple cushion...

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Not to mention sitting on a seachest for more than an hours give one a real case of 'flat ass' so id hate to think about sitting on one the entire time from Norway to Greenland:)

While I really have no hat in this discussion, it is a facinating thing.

One thing to keep in mind about research, theories, etc...
When thinking about how you might feel about something, remember that we are a bunch of wussies compared to our ancestors.