World Invitational Joust 2008- Tournament of the Phoenix

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:15 am

This will be a team event

Jeffrey Hedgecock will captain one team-

And Luke Binks will captain the the other team-

The competitors as well as speaker/demonstrator list and schedule will be announced later in the summer.

Updates will be posted to www.worldjoust.com as new information becomes available.

Gwen

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:27 pm

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:01 pm

Foot combats as well?

Wicked cool!

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:13 pm

Indeed!

The foot combat is one of my favorite things at the event. It's counted blows- very fast, very hard, very cool.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:25 pm

Nifty, nifty, nifty.

Woo-hoo!

I declare the game over...you can't get cooler than this. We talk about raising the bar, the only way you can top this is even richer array; more gold plating, jewels and other stuff that nobody except the ridiculously super-rich could afford then or now.

As far as "regular" working people go- this is the top of the heap and cannot be topped. The best thing about seeing somebody getting to this level is that it clearly reflects just how rich the knightly class was. Can you imagine the money spent at the Burgundian court -for a festivity like this- in the early 1400's?

Anyway, all the hard work has paid off for Jeff and Gwen.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:10 pm

Ack- NO!!!

The game is by no means over, -please- don't say that, even in jest. The idea is to *inspire* more people to do this, not to make them so afraid they won't try.

Let me reassure everyone that NOONE at this event is super rich. Not a single one of us is rich by anyone's standards. We scrimp and save and make stuff ourselves just like everybody else in the world.

Yes I think it is cool, glad you think it is cool, hell, let's face it, it IS cool, but it is not out of reach. We have no children, and this is our one and only real hobby. We do without things like new cars, motor homes, flat screen TVs and a host of other things because this is what is important to us. Any person who wants this bad enough can make it happen.

On that subject, let me say that 'success' is relative. We have a world class event going, but if we don't get more people through the gates, this may be our last event. We have stretched ourselves to the absolute limit, and put ourselves into debt to put on these events because we believe in them. However we are at the limit of our resources, so if we can't at least break even, this will be the the last tournament.

We fall into a weird limbo, not being a reenactment, renaissance faire, SCA event or something else easily pigeonholed and promoted, so we have no real sponsorships. Jeff, Luke and I are putting these events on with whatever we can take out of Historic Enterprises. It literally comes out of our pockets. We do with less, so we can put on these events. The only way to cover expenses is via gate receipts. I encourage anyone who supports this kind of activity to tell your friends and please help us spread the word. Buy a ticket and come out for a day or the weekend. For little more than the cost of a movie, you'll get a whole day's worth of entertainment for you and your family. It will be money well spent, I promise you.

Gwen

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:52 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:Ack- NO!!!

The game is by no means over, -please- don't say that, even in jest. The idea is to *inspire* more people to do this, not to make them so afraid they won't try.

Let me reassure everyone that NOONE at this event is super rich. Not a single one of us is rich by anyone's standards. We scrimp and save and make stuff ourselves just like everybody else in the world.

Yes I think it is cool, glad you think it is cool, hell, let's face it, it IS cool, but it is not out of reach. We have no children, and this is our one and only real hobby. We do without things like new cars, motor homes, flat screen TVs and a host of other things because this is what is important to us. Any person who wants this bad enough can make it happen.

On that subject, let me say that 'success' is relative. We have a world class event going, but if we don't get more people through the gates, this may be our last event. We have stretched ourselves to the absolute limit, and put ourselves into debt to put on these events because we believe in them. However we are at the limit of our resources, so if we can't at least break even, this will be the the last tournament.

We fall into a weird limbo, not being a reenactment, renaissance faire, SCA event or something else easily pigeonholed and promoted, so we have no real sponsorships. Jeff, Luke and I are putting these events on with whatever we can take out of Historic Enterprises. It literally comes out of our pockets. We do with less, so we can put on these events. The only way to cover expenses is via gate receipts. I encourage anyone who supports this kind of activity to tell your friends and please help us spread the word. Buy a ticket and come out for a day or the weekend. For little more than the cost of a movie, you'll get a whole day's worth of entertainment for you and your family. It will be money well spent, I promise you.

Gwen

Well.. There's pretty much no way for me to travel clear across the US to attend, no matter how fantastically cool I think this is.

However... I bet I'm not the only one more than willing to buy a ticket even though I'll never get to use it.

Make sure you put up the information here telling us how to buy tickets

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:56 pm

Oh, those pictures of the poleaxe bouts rocked. That made my DAY better!

Thank you!

Any more?

Does anyone have video?

Both thumb-in and thumb-out used!

-Aaron

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:24 pm

Gavin, I'm deeply touched by your generosity- thank you. I can think of a way you can help that won't have you purchasing a ticket you won't use- help spread the word. Without sponsorship, we don't have an advertising budget, and without an advertising budget we have to rely on word of mouth rather than radio, print and TV ads. You can help by Emailing a few of your buddies who live out here, or friends or family, or if you don't know anyone here, email one of the SCA Chivalry lists and promote the event. I can't believe that you and Vitus are the only SCA knights who think this is cool. Maybe some of your your bretheren would think so too, and they just don't know about it. I'd ask the same of anyone else who thinks this is cool- Spread the word- it's not SCA, but it's still cool, and worth attending.

I just checked the Caid calendar and it looks like November 1 there is Naevehjem Anniversary, the Baron's Bardic Feast, Carreg Wen Harvest Festival and the Summergate Long Sword/Great Sword tournament going on in SoCal. I imagine these events will draw off some attendance on Saturday, but the good news is that all events are only on Saturday, which means people could still come to our event on Sunday and see the final. Yeah!

Aaron, Lee posted some video of the foot combat on Facebook, but I don't know how to post a link here. I'll ask Jeff if he can figure out how. I watched it earlier today, and as Luke would say, it's 'cool as!'

Gwen

LeeC · Post by **LeeC** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:25 pm

You can check out video broken into parts here if you have a facebook account;

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1099116709

Or unedited here

Several more videos here

Seriously, if you can this may be your only chance to see an event like this on this side of the pond. Throw in the lectures and demos from Dr. Jeffery Forgeng on the fechtbucher and it is a serious must see.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:45 pm

The foot combat with pollaxe starts at about 19:30 in Lee's unedited video.

Jeff clocks Luke a good one in the head at about 21:40. The longsword combat starts at about 22:10.

This was all legitimate combat, none was choreographed. The pollaxes were composite material on an oak (or maybe it was ask?) haft, the swords were rebated steel.

Gwen

LeeC · Post by **LeeC** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:46 pm

Heh, you forgot to mention they went to longswords early after breaking axe hafts.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:38 pm

True musings, Gwen.

It is all very inspirational.

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:45 pm

That it's true competition and so realistic is outstanding. Wish I had the resources to venture into that arena.

deflagratio · Post by **deflagratio** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:24 am

Oh how I would pay for the DVD boxset of these events. I don't even really care about sound quality that much. I JUST WANT TO SEE IT. I would easily shell out 30-40 bucks for a couple DVDs from the event.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:44 am

I'd like to say "me too" but I know it would just be me watching the video while the kids ask if they can watch Sponge Bob Square Pants after daddy is done fooling around.

-Aaron

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:50 am

Hello All,

First let me say this:

Of those of you that can make it... GO!

You'll not see a cooler spectacle of this ilk on this side of the pond.

Period.

I know of no reason every SCA, renfaire actor, history buff, equestian, etc should not fill the stands for this kind of event.

Second,

Gwen, Jeff & Luke,

I'll offer my services with set up, working the field, and take down if you have me again.

Your Humble Servant,

David Teague

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:09 pm

Very interesting Gwen, congrats to Yourself and Jeff and Luke for your efforts and expenditure! i only wish it was easier for me to get out there as it looks set to be an amazing event

I hope all goes well with the Tournament and that you are able to continue putting on such great events in future.

Cheers

Matt

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:00 pm

Thanks to everyone for your moral support. Now if we can just get the attendance up to a reasonable level, we're gold!

I thought I'd mention that the image on the front of the poster is a photo that was taken at the last event. In it, Jeff is hitting Luke so hard Luke's pauldron is ripped off and is heading south. We specifically used this image to dispel any idea that what's happening isn't real, or is 'girly jousting' or whatever.

Here's a cool, bird's eye view of our horse supplier Chad Waldhauser helping put Luke's pauldron back in place.

[img]http://photos-207.ll.facebook.com/photo ... 32_344.jpg[/img]

The images on the back of the flyer were also taken at the Sword of Chivalry event- top left moving clockwise is Jeff and Luke in the pollaxe combat, Jeff at the beginning of a course, Fred handing Thomas a lance at the end of a course, Luke shaking hands with a young fan. It seemed right to use lots of images of Jeff and Luke, since they're going to be the team captains for the Phoenix event.

CiaranBlackrune · Post by **CiaranBlackrune** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:09 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:Ack- NO!!!

The game is by no means over, -please- don't say that, even in jest. The idea is to *inspire* more people to do this, not to make them so afraid they won't try. Gwen

You have absolutely inspired me on many levels.

I look forward to attending the event and am going to try and get as many of my SCA friends to join me as I can.

I would love to try jousting but having absolutely no horse experience (aside from making corrals) makes that more of a pipe dream. However getting to watch other people do it is just as good!

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:39 pm

Corrals? 'Pipe dream'? Nice one.

Seriously, thanks for dragging your mates down, they won't be disappointed. Sir Guillaume from down here is going to help us put some promo material together and it looks like we actually have a sponsor interested (ohpleaseohpleaseohplease).

Now if you know anyone in the weather business........

Gwen

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:34 pm

I want to do this so bad. I think my armour is more or less suitable, or could be made suitable with not too much work, but I haven't ridden a horse since I was a kid. The foot combat looks like piles of fun, though...

LeeC · Post by **LeeC** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:42 pm

Josh Warren wrote:I want to do this so bad. I think my armour is more or less suitable, or could be made suitable with not too much work, but I haven't ridden a horse since I was a kid. The foot combat looks like piles of fun, though...

http://www.knightschool.us/

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:10 pm

Knight School at Pennsic

^ · Post by ^ » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:00 pm

Lets see how much hate mail I can get with this.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:I declare the game over...you can't get cooler than this. We talk about raising the bar, the only way you can top this is even richer array;

Here is the thing about the "bar" or actually the two bars. The bar you are refering to is the top bar, that which is the highest level that as of yet has been done. The bottom bar is the absolute minimum which is acceptable. If you pay attention to the height that the top bar is at then you will usually be bellow it and spend too much time ignoring the bottom bar. Those of us who ignore the top bar, don't get held by it and just push forward to some goal and can concern ourselves with the goal and where to set the bottom bar.

The goal isn't what is in those photos, the goal is this

As far as "regular" working people go- this is the top of the heap and cannot be topped. The best thing about seeing somebody getting to this level is that it clearly reflects just how rich the knightly class was. Can you imagine the money spent at the Burgundian court -for a festivity like this- in the early 1400's?

I think for most people they aren't going to top this on their own starting from scratch. When I was visiting Jeff and Gwen in July 2002, Jeff and I were out riding one day and talking and the idea of doing this was in his head long before then and it was obvious this is what he really wanted to be doing. So it has been a work in progress. Jeff was pretty newly working on his current harness and I don't think he went to the UK for the first time for a year or two after that.

The thing for the "regular" person who is interested in this kinda thing is to get into the wake of those who are already moving and cutting the path and realize that it is going to take time to get there but much less then if you were going to cut your own path. If you buy efficently and are willing to do some finishing work yourself there is no reason an acceptable mid-late 15th century harness cannot be had by most people. Riding lessons, especially if taken as group lessons are quite affordable in many places. There are enough WMA groups around these days to find somewhere to start learning the skills. In many ways it is far more affordable to do an historical sporting activity like this then it would be to try and do something like a full life living history sort of thing at the same status level.

One of the first things I discovered when I moved from the SCA to doing LH/re-enactment stuff was that you get far more support and are able to move forward far more easily if you start in the wake of others. When I lleft the SCA I was doing late-13th century and after a year of working on that I found that it was much much easier to get in the wake as the 15th century. Still is actually.

If this is what you want to do, start aquiring mid-late 15th century harness and gear, take riding lessons, take up WMA, find a way to help support the jousts if possibly by ground crewing or what not. Maybe in a decade or two they can be national championships. [/list]

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:47 pm

Hello Peder,

I was at the last event and while they didn't have as many lords & ladies as the above in the field viewing box, Jeff & Gewn sure had the right feel and the view from the stands was quite close .

Cheers,

David

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:50 am

I'm glad noone has challenged what you said Brent because in my experience it's 100% correct!

One of the reasons we were drawn to the RA jousting (well, historical jousting outside of the US) was because it was already established. We could throw Jeff's armour into his travel cased, pack his soft kit, buy a ticket, and we were done. Easy peasy.

Then of course we decided going there wasn't enough, we had to bring it here. Now we have all the hassles of starting something from scratch.
That turned into a huge rock to push uphill through and against what already exists. Gotta love [stoopid] Type A personalities....

I'm glad you though we did good David, but when I compare the historical images to photos of the event, all I can see are things to improve for next time!!! (Like the Western saddle pads, and Griff's clip board- YECH!!!)

Gwen

Gwen

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:48 am

We should not miss the target for want of aiming high enough. The history of effort that you and Jeff have put forth shows no lack of aiming high.

But even these very great strivings are "but" a beginning, and is part of a broad effort in many directions which may eventually enable even greater things. When, thirty years from now, we remember such doings as we see today, I will not mind people saying "They did that? Wow..." and then some wise person will say, "But before there was that, there was nothing." And then they will--or should, at least--understand that these efforts are akin to soddies being cut out of the Kansas prairie.

That is why it is so critical that people who love the middle ages, the pageantry and the spectacle, and who love deeds of arms for pleasure should go and see and support these doings. There is something about being there that is irreplaceable. My only regret is that at present there is no venue such as the Kasteel van den Haar to hold an event like this at to my knowledge. That setting was superb.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

bairdec · Post by **bairdec** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:50 pm

How much are the tickets going to be? I might be on mid-tour leave about that time.

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:12 pm

$15-20 for an adult per day, and about 25% less for kids. (We have yet to decide the exact price, but that's where they were for the last 2 tournaments)

We offer 2 day pass discounts over the single day rate, and plan to offer family packages also. Group rates will also be available.

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:43 pm

OK - here is a slightly related question.

I am well aware that darn near every single 'joust' that one can find is very likely stage combat on horses. This is clearly an exception, and as I understand it from some posts on the archive, there are others in the US as well.

I would love to grab a gaggle of folks from my area and go out to CA to watch this and support the idea, but I don't think it is going to happen for various reasons. So... is there any place someone can go to find 'real' jousting events? Perhaps some closer to the Midwest?

^ · Post by ^ » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:32 pm

d-farrell2 wrote: I am well aware that darn near every single 'joust' that one can find is very likely stage combat on horses. This is clearly an exception, and as I understand it from some posts on the archive, there are others in the US as well.

So... is there any place someone can go to find 'real' jousting events? Perhaps some closer to the Midwest?

Here is the problem with your question, when you start looking at groups that are pushing the envelope and you start asking if others out there are doing the same activity the answer becomes complicated. Are there people who do competitive jousting? Yes. Is anyone else in North America seeking to do a coherent tournament from one time period, not that I've seen.

It boils down to this, experiencing improves your learning curve. Most people have a limited ability to bring book knowledge to bear without some degree of experience. If you want to be on the edge of the envelope you go to where that is happening, if you just want a place to start then something less then that can sometimes work.

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:44 pm

Peder wrote:
d-farrell2 wrote: I am well aware that darn near every single 'joust' that one can find is very likely stage combat on horses. This is clearly an exception, and as I understand it from some posts on the archive, there are others in the US as well.

So... is there any place someone can go to find 'real' jousting events? Perhaps some closer to the Midwest?
Here is the problem with your question, when you start looking at groups that are pushing the envelope and you start asking if others out there are doing the same activity the answer becomes complicated. Are there people who do competitive jousting? Yes. Is anyone else in North America seeking to do a coherent tournament from one time period, not that I've seen.

It boils down to this, experiencing improves your learning curve. Most people have a limited ability to bring book knowledge to bear without some degree of experience. If you want to be on the edge of the envelope you go to where that is happening, if you just want a place to start then something less then that can sometimes work.

I don't think I phrased my question well enough. My question is, basically, are there any 'real' (i.e. not stage combat) jousting groups that do demos/ competitions in the midwest? It doesn't specifically have to be the same kind of all-encompassing event that is advertised here... I am just trying to find something more 'real'/accurate technique-wise than the typical renn-faire joust. Not as a participant, but a spectator.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:49 pm

The International Jousting Association does competitive balsa jousting. They were active for a while but I've been watching the list and I haven't seen anything happening lately.

I'd try contacting either Lloyd Clark or Jeremy O'Neail, as I believe they are the US contacts for the group.

Gwen

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:22 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:The International Jousting Association does competitive balsa jousting. They were active for a while but I've been watching the list and I haven't seen anything happening lately.

I'd try contacting either Lloyd Clark or Jeremy O'Neail, as I believe they are the US contacts for the group.

Gwen

thanks for the info, I will see what I can find out