Fighting with a centergrip teardrop shield.

Tally · Post by **Tally** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:00 pm

Hi! I fought with one of these shields by icefalcon at practice this week and liked it. Can anyone tell me what the advantages and disadvantages would be of fighting with a centergrip teardrop like this?

Thanks!

[img]http://store.fastcommerce.com/_staticProxy/content/ff80808117344aab011752895ad45036/armor3%20162.jpg[/img]

audax · Post by **audax** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:15 pm

Issues with center grips in general: hard on the hand, sheild can be tabled by your opponent, presses and sweeps are hard to accomplish, taxing on the frontal deltoids, overblocking can be painful, since your opponent is likely to hit you in the legs.

With a teardrop, you also have to be aware of the fact that the angled sides leave some different openings that might not be there with heaters, ovals or rounds.

Still, it's a very fun style and once you figure out how to work it, can be a very effective defense. Give it a go if you enjoyed it.

Tally · Post by **Tally** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:22 pm

Is there such a thing as a centergrip kite? I am wondering if I will be hampered by the lack of a corner to hide behind.

I liked it because I was able to move the shield out of the way of my own blows. I was wondering if I might get the same effect from any centergrip, not necessarily a teardrop.

At pennsic I saw oodles of centergrip rounds, so I would find people to give me pointers. I didn't see centergrip teardrops, so I might be more on my own as far as how to make it work. It sure protected my leg well, though.

audax · Post by **audax** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:34 pm

Well that sheild pictured is a bit more kitish than teardoppish, teardrops tending to be fatter at the top. Blaine de Navarre here on the archive carries a center grip kite.

I wouldn't worry about not having corners because in reality, they are still there. Imagine if you cut the top off the kite. You get a flat top kite. The round top gives a little more protection to your head. The flat top offers better vision. A center grip round will leave different holes in your defence and that is really the only difference. a kite/teardrop is a round with a point on it, so you don't have to move the sheild as much to cover your legs.

Ultimately, a sheild is a sheild is a sheild. It goes between you and your opponent.

Also every type of sheild has it's advantages and disadvantages. ONce you learn what those are, you can make any style work for you.

Ceawlin Alreding · Post by **Ceawlin Alreding** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:37 pm

Where in the East are you?
Who's teaching you to fight/who do you train with?
What are you fighting with now?

I've seen (wooden!) centergrip kyte shields in An Tir. Traditions vary broadly across the known world, and they didn't think much of my aluminum, arm-strapped shield.

Are you young and spry? Do you fight a VERY active style? If so, that could be a good shield for you. Not sure about it in melee, but I'm a very conservative Northeastern Eastern fighter.

Tally · Post by **Tally** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:56 pm

I fight out Barony of Bhakail in the East kingdom. Most people here fight heater or kite. Sir Berach has one of these, and it is he that reccomended it to me, but he rarely fights with it. I wouldn't say I was young and spry, but I may have a few years of old and spry left in me. I am pretty active as a fighter, if you count running away. :lol:

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:03 pm

Tally,

As Audax mentioned, I fight with a shield not too different from the one in your picture. Mine is 20"W x 40"L, and I have the grip at the exact center of balance (from eyeballing it, it looks to me like the one in your picture may have the grip higher, causing more weight below the hand than above). I fought with a heater for many years before switching.

In my experience, there is no type of shield (except maybe a tiny buckler) that has an inherent advantage or disadvantage over others; they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Most important is finding the style you work best with. If you've been doing one thing for a while and switch, expect a period of adjustment during which you'll feel like you suck.

Specifically with regards to switching to a center-grip: if you have been a punch-blocker you will likely find yourself over-blocking with the new shield; if you have been a roll-blocker with a heater you'll miss the dexter chief corner for a while. One thing you'll notice about the top-nitch center-grip fighters is they don't move their shields around nearly as much as they move themselves around behind their shields.

Lucas · Post by **Lucas** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:25 pm

One thing you'll notice about the top-nitch center-grip fighters is they don't move their shields around nearly as much as they move themselves around behind their shields

VERY true. Tally, it really is a totally different style. I used to fight strapped heater as well, and switched to a centergrip oval about a year ago. I would say if you enjoy moving a lot during a fight, its a great choice. If you prefer to stay behind a passive defense, not so much.

With that particular shape, you are going to have to be very precise (it will come with time and many bruises) with your leg blocks. That thin bottom half leaves little room for error. The roundness at the top means you have to commit that shield to blocking the anticipated shot; you can't count on a corner to catch it. Therefore you are open to feints, unless you close rapidly, cutting off their avenues of attack. (See "cone" defense below.) I'd say you could fight that shield like a small round, with some extra on the bottom.

Fighting with a centergrip really makes you think about range. You can use the shield much more actively. Some people believe that the center-boss of your shield should be on the basket hilt of your opponent's sword at all times. It's called eliminating your opponent's "cone" of offense.

There's a lot of options, and style choices involved in centergrip fighting. Personally, it is not my ideal shield shape. It might be for you. Try it, and then try several other centergrips. You'll know soon enough if you really like it.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:35 pm

Here are some vids you should check out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTZmcZAn ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd8MMqLGeG0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIUaYtxyvI8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3JHD0Suuw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_AfeVIUsrg

Euric Germanicus · Post by **Euric Germanicus** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:11 pm

Tally, check your PM's bud.

-Matthew- · Post by **-Matthew-** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:38 pm

I have noticed in most all old pictures and art work that tear drops were strapped with the forearm running bottom to top with the hand grip near the top. The grip is a pair of X crossed straps. Have any of you ever strapped one this way?

I hope I explained this well.

-Matthew-

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:26 pm

The one in the photo gets a bit too narrow a bit too fast for my tastes.. I fight with one much like the one Titus posted in the video.

If you don't have anyone in your area fighting with one, learn from folks fighting with center-grip rounds -- they are essentially the same thing, except you have better leg coverage.

Practice moving it -- block left, block right, block high, block wraps. This will train your muscles, lead your body to learning how to move the shield without using too much arm, and teach you to be able to see while obscuring your regular field of vision. Do it in front of the mirror, in 10 minute sessions, every day..

Don't know if this shows anything useful, but here's one more video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrG-4jLApVk

-D

Tally · Post by **Tally** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:08 am

Thanks for the advice, everyone! It seems like there are advantages and disadvantages to every style of shield.

Thanks for the videos! Titus certainly is elegant with his teardrop. He seems to fight it much like a heater. He lay it on his body without much punchblocking, which I associate with centergrips. The tear drop shield Icefalcon sells is narrower at the bottom than Felix's. He actually calls it a teardrop kite.

I am small and mobile, and used to fighting a round shield (that's my shield on the left). I definitely want to try switching to a centergrip shield. Now to decide on the shape. This one was recommended to me and I really enjoyed fighting with it. If I can find someone with a centergrip round, I'll try that as well.

Thanks!

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:41 am

I used a center grip, but I'm not certain whether I'd call it a teardrop or a kite.

I often end up fighting with a sticky-hands type of thing, where I try to match the shield with my opponent's weapon, to foul it up.

The most important part of using a shield like that is: learning to use it aggressively while never striking your opponent with it.

I don't like to use it in large melees, but love to use it in small melees. They are excellent for chasing down polearms.

Tally · Post by **Tally** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:47 am

Edwin, what size is it? Blaine de Navarre's above is 20x40, and the one Ice sells is 24x40. I am not a big guy, and I don't want to look like a coward hiding behind a shield twice as big as he is.

Another question: Felix in his video was fighting with a high guard. Do you use a high guard as well?

sean of the chipendales · Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:38 am

Here a couple of vids with Duke Edward and Duke Brannos fighting with center grip kites, and I have a center grip heater.
They are very common and becoming increasingly popular.
I prefer they Heater as I like the corners defense (Please don't use my fights with these two as great defense examples......they are fast :0 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZCsfEzyuBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IpEhWhmEAo

Sean of the Chipendales

Tally · Post by **Tally** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:20 am

Nice fights! Two centergrips, heater vs teardrop. You guys carry your shields much closer to your body much closer than I would have expected. I thought centergrips were used more for punchblocking. If I didn't know it was a centergrip, I would think you guys were fighting with strapped shields.

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:17 pm

I will have to measure my shield once I am home to verify; I want to say it is about 20" x 34" or so. My guard moves too much to call it a high guard. I definitely need to work on my defense. I am at a point where I've hit a plateau and need to focus more in practice on improvement.

I also need to do more pell work while holding the shield. That's a good idea for all shields, but IMO it's more important with centergrip ovals, kites, and heaters than it is with any other shield. It is very easy to move the shield to get a shot without realizing it. It is very easy to practice shots that would require the shield the move: they work on the pell but don't work in combat.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:30 am

-Matthew- wrote:I have noticed in most all old pictures and art work that tear drops were strapped with the forearm running bottom to top with the hand grip near the top. The grip is a pair of X crossed straps. Have any of you ever strapped one this way?

I hope I explained this well.

-Matthew-

I started out with a kite strapped that way. It's an amazingly versatile and effective shield arrangement. It works closed in a conventional "hide behind the shield" style, and it works open, with the leading edge reaching out to cut off attack angles and the tail hanging behind to cover if you happen to miss the block out in front.

It's also very much easier on your arm and shoulder than trying to hang the shield with the angle commonly used for strapping heaters.

Tally · Post by **Tally** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:30 am

Interesting that you say it is easier on the shoulder. I would have thought the opposite. I have ordered one of these shields from Icefalcon, and I have been doing extra shoulder work in the gym to prepare for using it. I will let you guys know how I find it.
Thanks for all the input!

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:13 pm

Tally wrote:Interesting that you say it is easier on the shoulder. I would have thought the opposite. I have ordered one of these shields from Icefalcon, and I have been doing extra shoulder work in the gym to prepare for using it. I will let you guys know how I find it.
Thanks for all the input!

Please note that I was saying the vertical strapping arrangement on a kite is less strain than a canted strapping arrangement on a kite.

I have minimal experience with centergrips, and would say that they are very demanding on all aspects of arm strength, from gripping strength in the hand right up through the shoulder.

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:54 pm

I have been fighting with a center vertical strapped setup on my kite for a bit, it's around 18 inches wide, and around 26-28 inches long (my wife's old heater).

I fight with it like I fight with my buckler, straight out in front. This doesn't put much more strain on the shoulder than the buckler did.

I have found that the leg blocks, especially on the offside, are a bit of a bear compared to my buckler. I am also susceptible to hard fakes, then going under the shield.

The next one, I am going to restrap it in accordance with the Piostoia altar, and have the handle at the back edge.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/banzaimf/pistoia_altar.jpg[/img]

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:21 pm

banzaimf wrote:I have been fighting with a center vertical strapped setup on my kite for a bit, it's around 18 inches wide, and around 26-28 inches long (my wife's old heater).

I fight with it like I fight with my buckler, straight out in front. This doesn't put much more strain on the shoulder than the buckler did.

I have found that the leg blocks, especially on the offside, are a bit of a bear compared to my buckler. I am also susceptible to hard fakes, then going under the shield.

The next one, I am going to restrap it in accordance with the Piostoia altar, and have the handle at the back edge.

I think that you will find that strapping arrangement even harder to work with on such a small kite. The Pistoia example is clearly quite a bit larger than yours.

One of the things to remember with a vertically strapped kite is that it is very flexible. You *can* put that leading edge out there and cut off angles, but you can also pull your hand back in toward your chin or shoulder and radically increase the direct coverage of the shield.

It sounds to me like you are using a kite but fighting like it was a buckler.

When those "hard fakes" occur, instead of being baited out to an overcommitted position, try pulling your hand back and dropping your elbow. The top of the shield is still there to protect your head, and the tail swings down to protect your body and leg.

Tally · Post by **Tally** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:09 pm

I got my new shield from Ice himself at last night's practice. Now it needs to be assembled, painted, and trimmed. I have started a thread here
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1179437#1179437
asking for advice about how to do that. Thanks again for the input in deciding the pros and cons of purchasing this shield!
Tally