Viking armour

[eljungrande]

i'm having trouble finding information on viking armour...i'm sure there are many topics covering this but reading through so much info can get tedious. as of yet i know the vikings used chainmaille, and shields...but i have found the occasion reference to the vikings using lamelar. i also know that some used bear and wolf hides for armour as well as caribou hides.

[chef de chambre]

What we know for a fact about Scandinavian armour of the era would fill a few slender monographs at best. We have a couple of mail fragments, a lamelar fragment, and ssingle helmet, for anything outside of a shield, to the best of my recollection - this isn't my area of expertise, admitedly.

The only thing you could realistically count on, was absolutely, positively shield, and spear, and *possibly* a helmet. Anything more, and you are likely talking someone up the social ladder quite a bit.

[Derian le Breton]

The source for medieval Scandinavians wearing hides as armour is the sagas, which were written many generations after the events they depict. Furthermore, these references are the exception, not the rule, which makes them even less reliable in my mind.

-Donasian.

[Hrolfr]

Us true Norse fighters wear little and chew on our sheilds

[eljungrande]

the bear and wolf hides were only worn by the elite berserkers when a person became a berserker they would receive a bjorn name or bear name.

[Konstantin the Red]

the bear and wolf hides were only worn by the elite berserkers when a person became a berserker they would receive a bjorn name or bear name.

Source on this?

[eljungrande]

that came from the sagas...and i did that research years ago and the computer that that info was on was destroyed.

[Sgt. Heinrich]

THe sagas are unreliable in that they are tales that have been given the gloss of an epic poem, the same way we can't look at Homer and know what ancient greece was like. They have a lot of good clues and stuff like that but they are definitely not a source that can be be trusted outright.

[eljungrande]

however they are mainly what we have to go on

[Dalloch]

That does not make them the best source. Depends on the Saga as well, as some are better than others. A source is only good if other sources corroborate the information. We always have to beware of the chain of inference.

[eljungrande]

yes

[eljungrande]

as it stands hides would have been worn for warmth and protection from the elements...and certain hides when tanned can turn a blade...maybe not entirely but partially...and the making of leather armour was a simple thing at that time, all you have to do is boil leather in water and tree pitch, then press it into the form of what you want...or for lamellar all you have to do is cut out the plates and then boil them in the water and pitch and then make sure they stay flat...so it wouldn't be a big leap to think the vikings had some form of leather armour. oh and as several people have pointed out the reason we may not see leather armour in viking burial mounds is being organic they tend to deteriorate faster than metal.

[Flosi]

It's a huge leap to think that the vikings had some form of leather armour in the form of either water hardened or lamellar.

For a start, you are picking and choosing materials that do not survive in the archaeological record specifically so that you can justify the lack of evidence, and using what is essentially heroic fiction to justify it. This is like someone in 200 years time trying to base what our heroes of today looked like off a spiderman/superman/etc comic, quoting it as documentation, and assuming all our elite warriors wear lycra...

Secondly, there is no evidence for use, as far as I am aware, for either forms of armour in the area either before or after the period, for at least a couple of hundred years. At least with the padded jack arguement there is some proof to say that they may have had them before, and we know that they were worn after the period.

You seem to underestimate the work that goes into preparing leather for armour, and also the skill which would have had to have been handed down in a family, not just in preparing the mix, but getting the right sort of hide, sizing it for shrinkage, etc. This would require work on an industrial level comparable to that of a small smithy as it would need tools/forms/etc, and would not be something that you could just do in the back of a longhouse. As there are not that many applications for hardened leather to be able to make a living from it in period, and we have found no evidence for this industry, we have to draw a line under the idea of domestic manufacture.

[eljungrande]

one of my close friends makes leather armour using period techniques...the biggest thing he says is a problem is the sizing, and then after trial and error they would have figured that out, not to mention some of the slaves they took from other countries would have known how...but to say that they went from no armour whatsoever, not including the shield and helm, straight to chainmaille doesn't follow the logical progression of arms...that's like saying someone went from no projectile weapons straight to a firearm...it is logical to assume they had some form, weather boiled or othewise, of leather armour at some point in their history.

[Dan Howard]

Metal body armour has seen use since the beginning of institutionalised warfare. There is no such thing as "armour evolution". People used what they could afford and what worked. Time and again you seen the same types of armour reappearing over the centuries in various cultures. FWIW there are tons of surviving leather artefacts that date to the viking period. Not a single scrap has been identified as a piece of armour. The only type of armour that can be fairly conclusively demonstrated to have been worn by "vikings" is mail. All else is speculation until new evidence presents itself.

[Baron Conal]

Us true Norse fighters wear little and chew on our sheilds

Like this?

[eljungrande]

ok...in doing my research for a project i'm doing i found that iron and steel as they degrade deteriorate organic compounds faster than normal...if a viking warrior were burried in his chainmail shirt and leather armour it is plausible that the armour would not have survived...and armour would have been highly valued, so a father who can no longer fight might pass his armour down to his son as it came time for his son to go "a-vikin"

NOTE: just a theory

so while i agree that there is no archaeological evidence of leather armour in scandinavia, there is historical precedent for that time period (6th-11th century).

[eljungrande]

Us true Norse fighters wear little and chew on our sheilds

:wink:

Like this?

lol

[chef de chambre]

Even going by the sagas, "Hide armour", and cuirbolli are two different things. I am sorry to say, that you are going about trying to justify looking like the 21st century Viking equivalent of the mid 20th century "Viking" with horned helmet.

There are *good* viking groups out there, that I would recommend looking at, in the UK. If you want to try to justify something that there is no evidence for ever having existed, you are really asking on the wrong forum, as this is the Historical research Forum of the board.

[Dan Howard]

ok...in doing my research for a project i'm doing i found that iron and steel as they degrade deteriorate organic compounds faster than normal...if a viking warrior were burried in his chainmail shirt and leather armour it is plausible that the armour would not have survived

This might be plausible if we didn't have other leather items such as shoes buried in the same graves. Why would these survive and leather armour not?

[eljungrande]

ok...in doing my research for a project i'm doing i found that iron and steel as they degrade deteriorate organic compounds faster than normal...if a viking warrior were burried in his chainmail shirt and leather armour it is plausible that the armour would not have survived

This might be plausible if we didn't have other leather items such as shoes buried in the same graves. Why would these survive and leather armour not?

the shoes wouldn't have been in contact with iron or steel.

[eljungrande]

Even going by the sagas, "Hide armour", and cuirbolli are two different things. I am sorry to say, that you are going about trying to justify looking like the 21st century Viking equivalent of the mid 20th century "Viking" with horned helmet.

There are *good* viking groups out there, that I would recommend looking at, in the UK. If you want to try to justify something that there is no evidence for ever having existed, you are really asking on the wrong forum, as this is the Historical research Forum of the board.

re-read what i said...JUST A THEORY.

and i can't go into the UK...especially with the weapons i have for my costume. and once again i emphasize that the hides may not have been worn for armour, just had that benefit.

[Dan Howard]

the shoes wouldn't have been in contact with iron or steel.

So the only time a viking wore leather armour was when he was also wearing metal armour?

[eljungrande]

in other countries chainmaille would have been a secondary armour...and if you read back you'll notice i was specifically talking about burial sights

[Dan Howard]

in other countries chainmaille would have been a secondary armour

Not during the time period in question. Mail at this time was usually worn with no other armour but probably had some padding underneath.

.and if you read back you'll notice i was specifically talking about burial sights

So the only time a viking was buried with leather armour was when he was also buried with metal armour?

[chef de chambre]

Even going by the sagas, "Hide armour", and cuirbolli are two different things. I am sorry to say, that you are going about trying to justify looking like the 21st century Viking equivalent of the mid 20th century "Viking" with horned helmet.

There are *good* viking groups out there, that I would recommend looking at, in the UK. If you want to try to justify something that there is no evidence for ever having existed, you are really asking on the wrong forum, as this is the Historical research Forum of the board.

re-read what i said...JUST A THEORY.

and i can't go into the UK...especially with the weapons i have for my costume. and once again i emphasize that the hides may not have been worn for armour, just had that benefit.

There is something called the internet, and most of these groups have websites. Try the UK reenacting boards.

Vikings wore wool clothing, they were not Neanderthals.

[eljungrande]

i never said that

[eljungrande]

Even going by the sagas, "Hide armour", and cuirbolli are two different things. I am sorry to say, that you are going about trying to justify looking like the 21st century Viking equivalent of the mid 20th century "Viking" with horned helmet.

There are *good* viking groups out there, that I would recommend looking at, in the UK. If you want to try to justify something that there is no evidence for ever having existed, you are really asking on the wrong forum, as this is the Historical research Forum of the board.

re-read what i said...JUST A THEORY.

and i can't go into the UK...especially with the weapons i have for my costume. and once again i emphasize that the hides may not have been worn for armour, just had that benefit.

There is something called the internet, and most of these groups have websites. Try the UK reenacting boards.

Vikings wore wool clothing, they were not Neanderthals.

i won't comment on Neanderthals...but i will say this just because someone wore fur/hides doesn't mean they were uncivilized. there are still people here in alaska that wear fur/hides for warmth.

[chef de chambre]

How much research have you done, aside from reading Saga's? It does not seem like you have done a whole lot of it. You need to try to get in contact with some serious reenactors, researchers, and read some of the archaeological finds - there is a lot of information out there, for people willing to look.

The prime season for 'viking' activity would not coincide with wearing thick fur cloaks.

[Grimr Hvitulfsson Ulfhamr]

As far as research goes, the only thing that is sure is that the Vikings had mail shirts, helmets, and shields.

Lamellar is possible. A couple of lamellae were found in Birka and lamellar was common in the east so it is possible that eastern vikings acquired lamellar armor there.

The only reference to leather "armor" I know comes from a saga of Olaf Haraldsson

"Now we must relate what, in the meantime, was going on in Norway.
Thorer Hund, in these two winters (A.D. 1029-1030), had made a
Lapland journey, and each winter had been a long time on the
mountains, and had gathered to himself great wealth by trading in
various wares with the Laplanders. He had twelve large coats of
reindeer-skin made for him, with so much Lapland witchcraft that
no weapon could cut or pierce them any more than if they were
armour of ring-mail, nor so much."

GrimR

[eljungrande]

As far as research goes, the only thing that is sure is that the Vikings had mail shirts, helmets, and shields.

Lamellar is possible. A couple of lamellae were found in Birka and lamellar was common in the east so it is possible that eastern vikings acquired lamellar armor there.

The only reference to leather "armor" I know comes from a saga of Olaf Haraldsson

"Now we must relate what, in the meantime, was going on in Norway.
Thorer Hund, in these two winters (A.D. 1029-1030), had made a
Lapland journey, and each winter had been a long time on the
mountains, and had gathered to himself great wealth by trading in
various wares with the Laplanders. He had twelve large coats of
reindeer-skin made for him, with so much Lapland witchcraft that
no weapon could cut or pierce them any more than if they were
armour of ring-mail, nor so much."

GrimR

which means that there is the possibility that trade could have brought the armour and shortly after the technology to make it.

[D. Sebastian]

From: http://warriorsofhistory.com/about.php

Q: Would a depiction of an item in artwork be considered documentation?

Maybe. A single painting or illustrated period document? likely not, depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to be "X figure from Y painting", then sure. If you are looking for some single item in a kit from that same period, then you want to find multiple instances in art of the same period that reflect a pattern. When using art however, you have to make the distinction that you are acting on the sources that you are. You must accept that, lacking actual finds or existing pieces, you are basing your assumptions on the best evidence available, and you should look for something to contradict your assumptions. Otherwise, you'll likely find yourself deep in fantasy.



They had denim, rivets and buttons.
Is it "possible" they had Levi's button-fly jeans?
Yes, that is a ridiculous stretch - the problem is the slippery-slope you get yourself on with "possible" over "was". And "Was" can only be derived from historical evidence.

[chef de chambre]

Northern Scandanavia was, by one mention in a Fantasy story, written down hundreds of years after the events purportedly occuring happened, overrun... Wait for it...

With MAGICAL shirts of riendeer armour, from the "technologically superior" Lappland.

Just so you understand fully how silly your last assertion sounds.

Was he wearing 'gauntlets of Ogre Strength', and 'boots of flying' as well?

[eljungrande]

Northern Scandanavia was, by one mention in a Fantasy story, written down hundreds of years after the events purportedly occuring happened, overrun... Wait for it...

With MAGICAL shirts of riendeer armour, from the "technologically superior" Lappland.

Just so you understand fully how silly your last assertion sounds.

Was he wearing 'gauntlets of Ogre Strength', and 'boots of flying' as well?

ok you have to remember those time were HIGHLY superstitious times...remember how the english were described when they first came to the americas "demons who shot fire"

[chef de chambre]

You are being completely ineffective in defending your position, I suggest to you once more, to DROP your speculating, which is flying off into the realm of Fantasy, on this thread alone, AND ACTUALLY LOOK AT SOME RESEARCH.