Etching

Patin Windward · Post by **Patin Windward** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:17 am

Hey just a thought but wouldn't this work for "tinning" maile? just reverse the process and plate the links (it would require a big tub, 45g plastic barrel)...

Iohne · Post by **Iohne** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:42 am

It may well work for plating maille with certain limitations.

Firstly, remember that it is a very linear process. This is why it does so very little undercutting. What this means is that the side of the ring that is facing the other electrode will recieve more plating than the side facing away from it. Additionally, every ring would have to be electrically active in the circuit (connected).

It probably wouldn't work to simply have the woven maille immersed in the bath since the junction of the rings would be plated as well. This means that it would in effect solder the rings together with the plating metal. Additionally because of the resistance involved, the rings nearer to the electrical connection would probably receive more plating than those farther away from it.

Consequently, one would have to plate single rings with a minimum of two immersions (one for each side). -or- one could plate the wire before it is wound and cut.

On another note, thus far I've only ever tried copper plating items. While it is possible that other metals could be plated, I can't attest to the viability of that. You will have to experiment on your own as to the effectiveness of plating any given metal onto another.

Iohne · Post by **Iohne** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:47 am

if 0.8 amps could kill you at all voltages, I'd have been dead a long time ago! I beleive that there is a wattage that is fatal, wattage being a measure of voltage and amperage... What that exact wattage is, I don't recall.

Garth · Post by **Garth** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Patin Windward:
As to the safty issues, Some of the above had mentioned "more amps" Please keep in mind 0.8 amps can and will kill a human. That messure of amps can stop your heart. Well according to my welding and physics teachers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that kinda like saying a man can drown in 3" of water? Yes, it's possible, but the odds are pretty slim. I've taken well more than that a number of times and I'm still around. Of course, it's always a good idea to respect electricity anyway. Just a good idea.

Garth

rameymj · Post by **rameymj** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:06 am

Probably the biggest danger would be the charger overheating, especially on "fast charge" (high amperage) setting. Don't leave it unattended.

Some of the water will break down into hydrogen & oxygen, so good ventilation, and no spark/flames.

I don't recommend hooking two chargers in parallel. They usually are not the same voltage which can cause overheating. If you must, and I know someone will, put some resistance (such as a light bulb) on EACH positive lead. That is connect one side of a bulb to the positive terminal, then connect the other side to the other bulb. Two Sources Example

The danger from electric shock changes depending on the type (AC or DC), voltage, amperage, and path. IIRC the main cause of death is electricity causes the heart muscles to constrict disrupting the natural rythm. Another danger is burns/tissue damage.

Michael

[This message has been edited by rameymj (edited 07-03-2003).]

Iohne · Post by **Iohne** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:10 am

That is the purpose of attaching a light bulb in the circuit as I orginally said. It provides a load and overload protection especially in the case where one accidentally touches to two plates together.

Jurgen · Post by **Jurgen** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:29 am

ACK! Misinformation alert!

From: "Electrical Injuries." The Merck Manual of Medical Information: Home Edition. Pennsylvania: Merck, 1997

"At currents as low as 60 to 100 milliamperes, low-voltage (110-220 volts), 60-hertz alternating current traveling through the chest for a split second can cause life-threatening irregular heart rhythms. About 300-500 milliamperes of direct current is needed to have the same effect."

It doesn't take much current to kill a human, if it flows through the heart. Luckily the human body is a relatively high resistance conductor most of the time(approximately 100000 Ohms when dry). Note that this resistance drops DRASTICALLY the higher the voltage is or when wet. (Less than 1000 Ohms)

I'll use household 120V circuit as an example. Applying Ohms Law: current = voltage / resistance

For a normal dry human:
Reistance = 100000 Ohms
Voltage = 120 volts
current would then be 1.2 milliamps

For a normal wet human:
Reistance = 1000 Ohms
Voltage = 120 volts
current would then be 120 milliamps

Anytime you are dealing with electricity, be careful. DC current is much safer than AC and 12v DC would be hard pressed to generate enough current to kill you but if your DC source(eg. battery charger) is powered by AC, there is a greater risk than if you are using a battery as a power source.

Jurgen
who has his bachelors degree in electrical engineering

mik · Post by **mik** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:25 pm

This is all interesting, but again, does
anyone have pictures of the result obtained
with this process ???

MIK

Sasuke · Post by **Sasuke** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:23 pm

I was able to play around with the technique today. I was pleasantly surprised how well it worked. I only tried on some stainless scraps. The results looked more like sandblasting than etching though. I will try on mild to see if that makes any difference.
Here is a pic:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasuke/etch/e1.jpg
I used vinyl shelf liner as the resist. I just folded it a couple times and cut a chunk out to get the shape. I plan on trying a more detailed pattern in a day or so.

The only question I have is how does one properly dispose of the sludge that is left in the bucket?

Sasuke

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www.oaksarmoury.com

rameymj · Post by **rameymj** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sasuke:
...The results looked more like sandblasting than etching though. <snip>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try making lines of various widths.

If you do a design like that us a sheet for the cathode (- side), not a wire, and keep the plates as close together as possible.

Iohne: Do you have any pics of your work?

Michael

Sasuke · Post by **Sasuke** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 4:06 pm

I tried mild. The results were similar to the stainless. Brass though worked extremely well.
Here is my set up. I need to rig it up so the plates are closer together. I tried having the brass plate the stainless I had etched yesterday. It sort of worked but I think they were too far apart. Was interesting to actually watch the brass travel through the water to the stainless.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasuke/etch/e3.jpg

Here is a better shot of the stainless I did yesterday:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasuke/etch/e5.jpg

And here is the mild, it still has the scale on it. The etch went right through the scale without disturbing the scale around it. Very neat effect.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasuke/etch/e4.jpg

I also found that wax works very well as a resist.

Sasuke

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www.oaksarmoury.com

brother_fredrik · Post by **brother_fredrik** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:26 am

Thanks for the photos! I'm going to have to play around with this one. If for no other reason than to watch the brass move the with water!

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"Do or do not. There is no try."

DrTuba · Post by **DrTuba** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:42 am

Oooooo, and I missed that kind of fun? Drat!

Gives me ideas though... you said wax works as a resist... any kind of wax?

------------------
Obsessive dilletante.

Turn on, tune in, Toob out!
The Toob

Sasuke · Post by **Sasuke** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:48 am

I only tried one type of wax but I would think that any kind would work.

Sasuke

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www.oaksarmoury.com

Roissy · Post by **Roissy** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:18 am

as promised, followup on coining-die creation via this process. . . worked great!
Mirror-polished tool-steel blank with a resist on the face, and the pattern scribed through the resist. Approximately 30 minutes with the current running (actually, 6 five-minute etching runs, pulling the piece out in between each run to rinse the oxidized "gunk" off of it) I comfortably got about 1mm depth of etch (plenty for coining dies)with almost no undercutting, even on lines as fine as .5mm.

If you'd like to see the final results, come to simple-day in a few weeks, the coins will be the site-tokens.

ToolGoon · Post by **ToolGoon** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Roissy:
as promised, followup on coining-die creation via this process. . . worked great!
Mirror-polished tool-steel blank with a resist on the face, and the pattern scribed through the resist... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are your stamping the coins out of?

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Ben Schenkman
Order of Selohaar
The Phoenix Forge

Roissy · Post by **Roissy** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:42 am

Multiple materials for different purposes (some for site tokens, some for those working the site, some for the royals, a few nice commemorative ones, etc. . .)
currently running them out of copper, 1/2 hard Brass, & Nickel Silver. I'll use the same electro process, reversed, to gold-plate a few for the commemorative ones.

brother_fredrik · Post by **brother_fredrik** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 1:34 pm

I've e-mailed a request for more info about blank suppliers, etc. I then realized that others might want this info. I've been having a devil of a time finding this info out.

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"Do or do not. There is no try."

Roissy · Post by **Roissy** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:05 pm

Per Brother Fredrikâ€™s request. . .

Hereâ€™s the whole coining operation.

(note: what is described below is â€“not- a period process. There are corresponding period processes that would work properly to accomplish the same ends, but they would take considerably longer to execute. And my time-window did not allow me to experiment with them.)

You start with some graphic-editing software on your computer. And you work out a black and white image of what youâ€™re wanting to appear on the coin, Iâ€™d suggest you do it 2-6x the size you ultimately want the coin to be. When you have it perfect, you laser print it, and go find a full-featured copy machine.

You then scale your image down to whatever size you need the finished product to be, and you make a negative from the positive. (note that I said a â€“negative- black becomes white and vice versa, -not- a mirror image!) When you have a negative that is the right size, you photocopy it onto a sheet of press-n-peel blue. This stuff is a laserprint/photocopiable resist. (available from techniks.com) Then you cut out your resist, and iron it onto your coining die blanks. (Iâ€™d suggest you mirror-polish your die blanks first) This will give you a mirror-imaged negative on the surface of your die blanks. (this mirror imaged negative will create a non-mirror-imaged positive on the coin.) Then you etch, using the same electro-galvanic process previously discussed in this thread.

Once you have successfully created an obverse and a reverse die, you need some blanks. Iâ€™ve only found a couple of sources for blanks thusfar, and they were all prohibitively expensive (on the order of .25 ea) so you can either call roper-whitney and order a pair of punch dies the right size to make blanks with, or you can go the hole-saw in your drill press route. So you cut a bunch of blanks, you clean up any flash left on the edges of the blanks so they are nice and smooth. Then youâ€™re ready to make your first coin.

For starters, you need a press. In my case, itâ€™s a 20 ton pneumatic/hydraulic press. You put the obverse die on the bottom, a blank in the middle, and reverse die on the top, and you SSSQQQQUUUUUUUEEEEEEEEEZZZZZEEEEE. When you retract, you pull the dies apart, and take out your completed coin. (maybe you want to give it a quick once over on the buffer just to shine it up, but essentially done.)

Now, Iâ€™ve done this with copper, Iâ€™ve done this with brass, and Iâ€™ve done it with nickel-silver. With other metals (notably â€“harder- metals, YMMV) The process works fine cold, but youâ€™ll get a better, smoother finish on the coins if you do it hot, just take a torch to your blank right before putting it between the dies, heat to just barely glowing, and then press it. Water quench when you pull it out of the press.

My math indicates (all you engineers out there correct me on this) that a 1.5â€

Jurgen · Post by **Jurgen** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:14 pm

There is a much better tool for punching coin blanks than a hole saw or a whitney punch. What you really want is a disk cutter. A cheap one can be had for around $20. A really good one for a little over $100. They are definately worth the money. You end up with nice clean blanks. They are generally available from jewlery supply houses like Rio Grande, Contenti, TSI, etc.

Jurgen

adric · Post by **adric** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 9:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by brother_fredrik:
I've e-mailed a request for more info about blank suppliers, etc. I then realized that others might want this info. I've been having a devil of a time finding this info out.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have been using these for a while now and if you looking for brass, quarter size blanks that dont cost too much and you don't mind bending the rules- go to Chuckie -Cheese and get the $20.00 worth of tokens. then go home! You have to grind off the "No cash value" and eagle on the reverse but for the most part they are pure brass and a good size for several uses.

brother_fredrik · Post by **brother_fredrik** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:37 am

Adric:

I think I'll have to stick with cutting out my own. I'll have to see if I can get access to a press for this. Thanks for the info.

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"Do or do not. There is no try."

DrTuba · Post by **DrTuba** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:42 am

If I use marker to trace out a pattern, it will be etched away, right?

------------------
Obsessive dilletante.

Turn on, tune in, Toob out!
The Toob

Iohne · Post by **Iohne** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:32 am

I've not had too much luck with marker using this process. That having been said, you can use Testor's paint pens, they seem to work.

Sasuke · Post by **Sasuke** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:27 pm

I tried one with a sharpie as resist. Sharpie works fine for acid etching. But with this method, the area under the sharpie actually seemed to etch more than the exposed areas.

Sasuke

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www.oaksarmoury.com