Hey all,
So, I'm in the process of putting together kit, and part of that is a subarmalis to go under my armour.
A lot of my fighting is done in the summer in places where it's both very hot and very humid, so my question is, what type of fabric is the most comfortable to wear in thick layers? Comfort against the skin isn't such a big deal, but moisture and thermal properties are. I know that in general natural fabrics are better, but from your experience, what's the most comfortable? The right fabrics tend to cost a fair bit of money, I don't want to have to make a second.
So, if I'm going to be wearing 15 (arbitrary number) layers of padding, what would you suggest . . . Linen? Wool (and what weave and type)? Hemp? I'm planning on sticking with natural fibers that would have been available in Europe, but if there's something artificial that would work well on internal layers that aren't visible, that would be good information as well.
Any help or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Most Comfortable Textile in Thick Layers?
Moderator: Glen K
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talaananthes
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Linen is probably the best choice. It breathes wells and its period. I don't if there is much of a difference between a subarmalis and a gambeson, but check out this awesome guide from Lady Magdalena at White Mountain:
http://whitemountainarmoury.com/pdfs/armingCoat.pdf
She recommends buying linen from http://www.fabrics-store.com.
I would reconsider using 15 layers. I know you said it arbitrary, but that's a lot. Two layers with some cotton batting in-between would be easier to sew, wear, and move in.
http://whitemountainarmoury.com/pdfs/armingCoat.pdf
She recommends buying linen from http://www.fabrics-store.com.
I would reconsider using 15 layers. I know you said it arbitrary, but that's a lot. Two layers with some cotton batting in-between would be easier to sew, wear, and move in.
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Bleddyn De Caldicot
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azure d'or
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Bleddyn De Caldicot wrote:Piers Brent wrote:You will get lots of answers and lots of linnen but something to think about is that wool has far more ability to absorb impact in fewer layers then linnen.
There was also a greater abundance of wool in Europe in period.
And let me throw in on the wool side - light weight wool does exist, and it wears very well. It breathes almost as well as the linen, although I can't for the life of me get Seth to believe this.
I would aim for a light weight wool, making 100% sure by doing a burn or bleach test that it's really solid wool.
Good luck!
Gwen
Rosa Meridiana
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Order of the Laurel
"Complaining isn't nearly as effective as complaining and working toward solutions." - HG John the Bearkiller
"Adults actually talk things out face-to-face" - Duke Godwine of Sherbourne
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Bob H
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There are wool fabrics that are somewhat bulky (to absorb impact), but have fairly open weaves. Sealed by a tightly woven shell they trap air and are warm, but covered with another open weave fabric they breathe well.
If you'll fill in your profile a bit so we at least know what country you're in, we may be able to recommend economical sources of good quality fabric.
If you'll fill in your profile a bit so we at least know what country you're in, we may be able to recommend economical sources of good quality fabric.
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talaananthes
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Thanks for the advice, all.
I'm really trying to avoid cotton batting. I just don't like the idea, I'd rather use several layers of cloth rather than the batting. The stuff just doesn't breathe well enough in my experience.
Anyway, I currently go to school in St. Louis, MO, my parents live in Lexington, KY, and I have family in Galway. I definitely have easiest access to American stores, though.
I can find linen easy enough. Where would be the best place to get wool, and what type of wool am I looking for? And if I do use linen, what actual oz. weight counts as "heavy" and "medium"? From looking around sites, it would appear that 8 oz. is heavy and 5-6 oz is medium, is this correct?
I'm really trying to avoid cotton batting. I just don't like the idea, I'd rather use several layers of cloth rather than the batting. The stuff just doesn't breathe well enough in my experience.
Anyway, I currently go to school in St. Louis, MO, my parents live in Lexington, KY, and I have family in Galway. I definitely have easiest access to American stores, though.
I can find linen easy enough. Where would be the best place to get wool, and what type of wool am I looking for? And if I do use linen, what actual oz. weight counts as "heavy" and "medium"? From looking around sites, it would appear that 8 oz. is heavy and 5-6 oz is medium, is this correct?
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Bob H
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I'll cut and paste some of this from another thread:
Here's a group of fabric suppliers that mostly cater to the 18thC reenactor community. A lot of the fabrics would work fine for Viking Age, and they should know which colors resemble the results of madder, woad, weld, etc. Bear in mind that wool takes dye extremely well, even dark colors, but linen doesn't take/hold it well at all. Silk varies, but usually dyes well.
Carolina Calicoes, you'll have to call them as their website has only a hint of what they carry. Their prices are very good, sometimes cheap.
Burnley & Trowbridge, their swatch package is worth the $4, but again, you'll have to call in your order to see what they have in stock. The swatch package is also good to help you get an idea of how the various materials look and feel. Their prices are fair, but seldom cheap.
Denver Fabrics have a lot of their current stock on their website. They usually have very low prices.
Fabrics-store.com usually has their entire stock online, they're best known for their linen. I don't even look at prices when I order from them, I already know I can't beat them elsewhere.
Most of these cater to Revolutionary War reenactors. Many 18thC living history and reenactment groups are very particular about fabrics (well, actually they're damned picky about everything), and their suppliers tend to be not only well versed but also very welcoming and helpful to potential buyers. Most are familiar with medieval fabrics, as well, and can work from an archaeological find or your particular specs to find something you'll like. I've visited the folks at Carolina Calicoes at RevWar events, and found them especially friendly and helpful (I still have enough linsey-woolsey for a hunter's frock stored away for future needs.)
I've worn both a klibanion and an arming coat padded with 100% cotton, and you are right in saying that it doesn't breathe much. It's too dense for that. What it does, and does well, is soak up perspiration and wick it to the outside of the garment so that it can evaporate and cool you. Of course, that only works if the outside of the garment can reach air, which it can't do if covered by plate. You do get some relief from the collar, armpit, and inside arm areas though. I like it, but in fairness I haven't tried layers of fabric as an alternative. Your idea may be best, I simply don't know. I can only say that the closer I get to accurately reproducing historical armour and arming clothes, the more comfortable I find the resulting kit.
Here's a group of fabric suppliers that mostly cater to the 18thC reenactor community. A lot of the fabrics would work fine for Viking Age, and they should know which colors resemble the results of madder, woad, weld, etc. Bear in mind that wool takes dye extremely well, even dark colors, but linen doesn't take/hold it well at all. Silk varies, but usually dyes well.
Carolina Calicoes, you'll have to call them as their website has only a hint of what they carry. Their prices are very good, sometimes cheap.
Burnley & Trowbridge, their swatch package is worth the $4, but again, you'll have to call in your order to see what they have in stock. The swatch package is also good to help you get an idea of how the various materials look and feel. Their prices are fair, but seldom cheap.
Denver Fabrics have a lot of their current stock on their website. They usually have very low prices.
Fabrics-store.com usually has their entire stock online, they're best known for their linen. I don't even look at prices when I order from them, I already know I can't beat them elsewhere.
Most of these cater to Revolutionary War reenactors. Many 18thC living history and reenactment groups are very particular about fabrics (well, actually they're damned picky about everything), and their suppliers tend to be not only well versed but also very welcoming and helpful to potential buyers. Most are familiar with medieval fabrics, as well, and can work from an archaeological find or your particular specs to find something you'll like. I've visited the folks at Carolina Calicoes at RevWar events, and found them especially friendly and helpful (I still have enough linsey-woolsey for a hunter's frock stored away for future needs.)
I've worn both a klibanion and an arming coat padded with 100% cotton, and you are right in saying that it doesn't breathe much. It's too dense for that. What it does, and does well, is soak up perspiration and wick it to the outside of the garment so that it can evaporate and cool you. Of course, that only works if the outside of the garment can reach air, which it can't do if covered by plate. You do get some relief from the collar, armpit, and inside arm areas though. I like it, but in fairness I haven't tried layers of fabric as an alternative. Your idea may be best, I simply don't know. I can only say that the closer I get to accurately reproducing historical armour and arming clothes, the more comfortable I find the resulting kit.
Keeping well hydrated is a good start.
Wearing insulating materials can keep the heat both in or out (ever heard of wearing long johns in the desert during the day), so wool should be fine.
There are some debates on weather garments that are made of multiple layers are as protective as stuffed/padded garments, but I'm going to leave that one alone [I tried a 2'x2' piece of 32 layer canvas(6-8oz.) with lacrosse kidney pads and personally would've taken the mace hits].
If you want to try doing a layered version, make a mock-up from cheap material first
Wearing insulating materials can keep the heat both in or out (ever heard of wearing long johns in the desert during the day), so wool should be fine.
There are some debates on weather garments that are made of multiple layers are as protective as stuffed/padded garments, but I'm going to leave that one alone [I tried a 2'x2' piece of 32 layer canvas(6-8oz.) with lacrosse kidney pads and personally would've taken the mace hits].
If you want to try doing a layered version, make a mock-up from cheap material first