WIP late 15thc century armet..

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:45 pm

thought i'd give one a go.. wanted something a bit flash for next year..

will form the back tomorow and maybe even start the cheeks.. woah there fred, lets not get carried away now..

cheers guys...

Fred

Dierick · Post by **Dierick** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:25 pm

Nice work on getting that shape like that, I've never been able to do that on a welded piece before!

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:28 pm

didn't get as much time in the workshop today due to dadmin... and bringing the crest together was a bitch.. but got there in the end as well as refining the skull with generall smothness throughought..

some shots before i welded...

now i'm offering brownie points to anyone who can share more shots of this helm.. come on, keep a dude going.. i need a pic of the back espescially

cheers...

Fred

Jon Terris · Post by **Jon Terris** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:43 pm

You picked a nice one to start with didn't you!

Where is that armet currently Fred?

Nice website by the way!

JonT

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:46 pm

Something is wrong with the way that visor sits on that helm. Is it orignial to that helm?

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:20 am

Looking good so far, my guess is the Visor is original, but perhaps the hinged cheek plates are not...

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:23 am

lorenzo2 wrote:Something is wrong with the way that visor sits on that helm. Is it orignial to that helm?

Of course it is. Look at the fluting and scalloping on the visor and the brow of the skull. Now look at the construction of the back and the jawplates. :wink:

I'd say it's a (very nice) late-period sallet converted into an armet due to damage or changing needs. The armorer obviously appreciated the beauty of the original helmet, and did his best not to disturb it and complement it with the new work. Even if that meant the visor would sit funny.

James Arlen Gillaspie · Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:03 am

NNNOPE... It's a 'Helmschmid'. The visor isn't all the way down. The construction is very eccentric; it is not an armet OR a closehelm, constructionally. It is the non'gothic' version of this helm, slightly different hinge position. Fred, try searching 'roelipilami' on flickr.com. He had many pic's of the helm.

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:39 pm

Yes, but why isn't the visor all the way down? Something on this helm has been messed with I'm just not sure what it is. To force the visor closed the eye slits would be unusable. To leave it where it is leaves a silly gap. Could the jugular plates be replacements or damaged in some way?

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:24 pm

lorenzo2 wrote:Yes, but why isn't the visor all the way down? Something on this helm has been messed with I'm just not sure what it is. To force the visor closed the eye slits would be unusable. To leave it where it is leaves a silly gap. Could the jugular plates be replacements or damaged in some way?

I have no idea why the visor isn't all the way down but it might be a curator mistake. They occasionally get things as wrong as arms on the wrong sides. It might have something to do with the catch mechinism on the far side of the helm too.

But I'm curious why you think lowering the visor would make the eye-slot unusable. By my eye it looks like the neck opening is at too steep an angle. It should be more horizontal. I think that if the visor were closed properly and then the body of the helm reoriented so the slot were forward again the neck issue might resolve itself. It don't see that the skull portion would be any less comfortable for doing so either. I wish I knew enough photoshop to mock that up to show you what I meant.

Sean

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:48 am

I am not sure what the cheek pieces look like under the visor. However, I am thinking if they have a small u shaped opening like some italian 15th century armets then if you push the visor down a part of the cheek would obscure the corner of the eye slot on the visor. Of course, if the opening in the cheek pieces is large that might not happen.

I am also thinking that if you push the visor down the fluting alignment where the visor and forehead meet would be thrown off. Assuming it is even possible to push the visor lower given how tightly if fits at the forehead.

Some helmets have long and well known histories of repairs and I was wondering if someone would chime in that this was one of those and in which book the information could be found.

Carlo Paggiarino · Post by **Carlo Paggiarino** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:42 am

Can anyone tell me where it is?
Thanks.
Carlo

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:12 pm

Courtesy of Roelipilami.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2131344868/in/set-72157603233334556/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2131343434/in/set-72157603233334556/

You'll find more views in the menu there. It's in the Deutsches Historisches Museum, Berlin, Germany.

Matt

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:41 pm

finished cleaning up the welds and started on the back plate.. cut out a blank and dished the skull..

then started shrinking back and copressing the skull..first couple passes..

have since taken it up to that marked line, slowly drawing the back of the skull back under itself..

there is evidence of these helms from helmschmeids sketch's, and i think its more of an armet than anything else.. be it hinged on only one side.. i'm considering having two cheek plates meeting in the italian fashion locked by the visor, simply to make my job a little easier : ) after all i am only doing this for fun...

cheers..

Fred

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:32 pm

been raising hell today.. more admin prevented me from getting as long as i'd hope again, but had a good run and left myself to shattered to go to rowing..

need decent pics of pierce work to give me ideas for the back please, if anyone has something their willing to share, i will be most grateful lol...

cheers..

Fred

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:33 pm

hazar, back plate fitted... took me longer than i would have hoped as keeping the backplate even was a bitch when i stretched out the flange for the neck..

tomorow, cheek plates..

cheers

Fred

Jon Terris · Post by **Jon Terris** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:13 pm

Bump!

Well? What happenend to those cheek plates?

JonT

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:06 pm

ay up,

not as many progress shots on these, cheeks are never easy so was a bit too eager to get them done to stop and take photos.. basically dished the front thrid ish, then combined shrinking and dishing to form the jaw... the side were raised across my anvil top..

the jaw still juts out to far on these pics so took them back in this afternoon when i got a spare moment..

still needing pierce work shots guys..

thanks..

Fred

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:04 pm

Happy New Year!!

hope everyone had a decent festive season.. mine was spent chilling in Scotland and away from my workshop

but eager as ever i've bounced back into it the last two days, and have made some progress with the helm... the hinges on the side held me back fro a while, so i reduced them down to 4 'teeth' instead of 6.. got em in and the cheeks attached.. and today i've been working on the visor..

who knows, i may even finish it this week... doubt it..

cheers..

Fred

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:08 am

Shaping up nicely Fred!

Ckanite · Post by **Ckanite** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:02 am

very nice man, I wished I could do something as nice as that.. I might have to give that a try sometime this summer!!

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:34 pm

one ham sandwich and a cup of tea later..

still have some lines to even out but now at least the sides are coming in...

more in the near future..

Fred

Aussie Yeoman · Post by **Aussie Yeoman** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:31 pm

with the two halves of the helm top, how did you get them to come in so much at the back, ala, how did you make the two halves come together as more than a hemisphere?

I suppose you just hit it some...

Dave

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:50 pm

shazam!

ordered the blanks for the rivets today along with the lift peg.. tomorrow i must fit the arms and position/ drill the visor.. : ( never like that part..

fredwinuhttp://forums.arm · Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:22 am

at last its finished (nearly) ; )

just have to put the liner leather in, drill the ear and crest hole's and add all the file worked lines on the fluting (gulp).. any tips??

today: Rhodes breast plate..

cheers..

Fred.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:17 am

For the lines on the flutes, i suggest investing in a graver and doing it that way. I think a file would leave too rough a mark.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:50 am

I don't exactly know what to say......The words "I hate you" spring to mind.... :shock:

Extremely nice work.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:14 am

fredwinu wrote:at last its finished (nearly) ; )

just have to put the liner leather in, drill the ear and crest hole's and add all the file worked lines on the fluting (gulp).. any tips??

Fred.

Excellent job on the helmet! As to the incised lines on the flutes, my WIP theory is that they chiseled in the lines before they raised the flutes. Too late to do that in your case though.

After fluting they would then clean and refresh the lines with a file. This could explain why the lines are incomplete sometimes. Although that could also be explained by the final polishing process or over cleaning the armour during it's lifetime. I did some tests and they came out ok. YMMV

I think that in your case you're only recourse is to engrave the lines (like Thomas suggested) or you could etch them in. Engraving the lines would take some skill though.

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:19 am

Oh, for the love of... :shock:

Expletive, expletive, expletive!

That is ridiculously awesome. I hate you.

Jon Terris · Post by **Jon Terris** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:24 am

Yes Fred, bravo! I look forward to seeing this on the field!

How is it for fit?

JonT

Signo · Post by **Signo** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:44 am

My jaw is fallen under the desk, and now I'm unable to find it... :shock:

Ckanite · Post by **Ckanite** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:15 am

EVERYTHING and I mean everything I have ever made looks like crap next to your beautiful helmet...

brunoG · Post by **brunoG** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:32 pm

Age it properly and it will be sold very quickly at a major auction house .... an helm for connoisseurs.