holding his sheild up side down....

bigjon · Post by **bigjon** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:50 am

any thoughts on the guy on the right with the green sheild?

:?:

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:45 am

Personal preference?

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:45 am

My guess would be lazy/uninformed artist.

Sean

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:08 pm

It's VERY common for Central European guys to do this, and they swear by it. I'm guessing that shields are simply versatile, and can be used in a variety of ways.

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:24 pm

Perhaps the artist wanted to show what the inside looked like with the strapping, etc. Maybe the forearm strap broke, or he was using the straps for a centergrip, and it flipped on him.

mmmgood · Post by **mmmgood** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:07 pm

could be pulling it from his back you can see the shoulder strap.

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:35 pm

He's also using a sword so big it looks like it's from an anime movie...

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:44 pm

olaf haraldson wrote:He's also using a sword so big it looks like it's from an anime movie...

There's one that looks very much that size in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, I was looking at it Friday. I will note that looking at it there in front of me I had a hard time believing it would be a sword for actual combat. Looked unwieldy as all get out, even with the hilt long enough for two hands...

As to holding the shield with the point up, I would suggest giving it a try

When I fought with a large kite I would occasionally use a guard with the narrow point at the top - it worked just fine.

As to whether the artist then would know their subject - I hesitate to condemn their knowledge. Sometimes their representations are obviously flawed (fechtbuch illustration showing two right hands gripping a sword, for example. Or a painting I was examining at the Met in which the artist clearly coudln't handle the perspectives he wa showing on the armour (helmet all wrong on the head, wings on poleyns that wrapped around behind the leg and would prevent walking), but when it comes to *what* they are showing as opposed to *how* they are showing it, I recommend considering that we maintain open minds.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:34 pm

Kilkenny wrote:As to whether the artist then would know their subject - I hesitate to condemn their knowledge. Sometimes their representations are obviously flawed (fechtbuch illustration showing two right hands gripping a sword, for example. Or a painting I was examining at the Met in which the artist clearly coudln't handle the perspectives he wa showing on the armour (helmet all wrong on the head, wings on poleyns that wrapped around behind the leg and would prevent walking), but when it comes to *what* they are showing as opposed to *how* they are showing it, I recommend considering that we maintain open minds.

not knowing what side of the shield was the top.... kinda like
a modern American not know which end of a car was the front...

getting proportions wrong is one thing.... this seems more deliberate.

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:47 pm

Maybe he doesnt want to get wrapped?

Raven MacLeod · Post by **Raven MacLeod** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:53 pm

Speaking as an illuminator. It could possibly be some spilled green paint.

Just say'n

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:32 pm

He's passing it to the guy behind him..

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:45 am

pure conjecture.

The shield is larger proportionally than the other shields around it. Especially noting the size of the red shield in the foreground.

A large heater would have problems crossing from one side of the horse to another while engaged. Holding it in the way portrayed, would allow for easier horseback usage, while allowing it to be turned for foot combat.

Glaukos the Athenian · Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:19 am

banzaimf wrote:pure conjecture.

The shield is larger proportionally than the other shields around it. Especially noting the size of the red shield in the foreground.

A large heater would have problems crossing from one side of the horse to another while engaged. Holding it in the way portrayed, would allow for easier horseback usage, while allowing it to be turned for foot combat.

I'd say we have a winner. (Tho Sir Vitus has a good point)

Of course this is all conjecture, yet it makes sense when looked at it from the practical perspective.

The reason why he is holding it like that is because he can since his shield is strapped in a way that allows him to do so.
The reason why he would want to do that is tactically pretty obvious. He is blocking a high blow while cutting with his sword.

A heater, as Oakeshott proposed, developed from the Kite, which was in itself a modification of the round so as to provide better coverage for a mounted fighter. The "point down" position of the heater is meant to allow the pointy tip at the bottom to protect the groin and leg of the rider and fit next to the neck of the horse, as shown in this picture from the UK, especially the figure in the back, in the white horse.
[img]http://www.greydragon.org/trips/Hastings/hastingscavalry066.jpg[/img]

Still at Senlac, The Bayeux Tapestry shows normans holding shield in less than vertical fashion

Now we have all seen the famous funerary relieve of Sir Robert of Shurland in Mister, Sheppy, which shows the intricate suspension of his shield. The straps are especially cool precisely because they allow for a variety of grips with the same shield and straps, as opposed to having a rigid grip.

The reason to hold the shield upside-down is simply because he is blocking a high blow while delivering one himself.

So your warrior is not just holding the shield upside down, but rather covering his head by switching grips on the straps, lifting his shield over his head to cover his back and head as in a Karate outside/up block, and thus both covering his head and opening the way for his own sword blow.

I'd say it is a pretty cool illumination and that it is perfectly possible that the illuminator actually saw this type of shield handling being performed, and decided to show it. Pretty cool indeed.

Rowan

Gunthar · Post by **Gunthar** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:11 pm

Duke Lloyd von Eaker would fight with a point-down heater. It was a decent defensive style but it also made a formidable weapon. Unfortunately, it would be totally illegal in most SCA combat.