Is this a real faceplate helm, and where is it preserved?

brunoG · Post by **brunoG** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:50 pm

Found this on russian web

http://smhospital.fatal.ru/HISTORY/helm ... m_1big.jpg

from this webpage

http://smhospital.fatal.ru/history.php?what=helmet

The text seems to say unattributed helm.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:05 pm

I believe the helmet is in the Netherlands Army Museum? It has been discussed before, perhaps here or the 75Years Yahoo group?

Edit: The helm was discussed on 75 Years around Sept. 11, 2000, though the pictures have been removed. It is in the Netherlands Army Museum in Delft, and was labelled at that time as a "fifteenth century" helmet for foot combat. It's either 13th century or a 19th century fake.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:22 am

Yes, they say unattributed. So, no find-place, nor provenance.

The second pic in the trio is captioned as an early Topfhelm in pic of Roland, "drawing his sword and sounding his horn," in a window in Notre-Dame cathedral, France, 1225.

The third, "early Topfhelm, with small forepiece or visor, first half of the 13th century." That "BEK" word is "century," and for convenience you can ignore extra letters following those three, which are case-endings -- where English would use prepostions. You will see many uses of the term in Russian-language sites of this kind. Seldom will you see exact years, three or four digits with an upside-down L following the numbers -- the letter "G" for "GODA." But maybe now and then, when we've really got a reliable date.

brunoG · Post by **brunoG** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:52 am

Konstantin the Red wrote:Yes, they say unattributed. So, no find-place, nor provenance.

The second pic in the trio is captioned as an early Topfhelm in pic of Roland, "drawing his sword and sounding his horn," in a window in Notre-Dame cathedral, France, 1225.

The third, "early Topfhelm, with small forepiece or visor, first half of the 13th century." That "BEK" word is "century," and for convenience you can ignore extra letters following those three, which are case-endings -- where English would use prepostions. You will see many uses of the term in Russian-language sites of this kind. Seldom will you see exact years, three or four digits with an upside-down L following the numbers -- the letter "G" for "GODA." But maybe now and then, when we've really got a reliable date.

So my wife just pretends to know Russian ... tx

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:25 am

Bruno,

I think Kon was talking about russian word structure itself not your wife's russian. He is just saying that the ending of the words change where as in English we would have I, you, he/she, we, them, etc. before the verb in other languages its built in at the end of them.

It is an odd helmet to be sure. I'd lvoe to think it real as there are none others I know of from the time but some of the look is a bit 'off' to me.

RPM

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:39 am

Konstantin the Red wrote: The third, "early Topfhelm, with small forepiece or visor, first half of the 13th century."

early Topfhelm with small "nazatilnik"
zatilok is the back of the neck - so they are talking about the back protection not the visor.
Visor is usualy Zabralo, Litchina.
On that site they use Maska (mask) in descriptions higher on the page.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:52 am

Thanks, Norman. I really do have to pull my dictionaries back out of storage, I see. Heck, I wonder if I'd've even recognized "MACKA" as a visor off the top of my gulliver...

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:06 pm

Nice page, thanks for posting.

I am also leery of pretty much knowing whats out there and then suddenly learning of new pieces. (museum stuffers???----who knows.)

But then again so much from eastern europe and russia and china has been generally hard to get to as a result of the coldwar etc......that we are not just starting to see hints and glimpses of their archeological footprint.

We also tend to have a very coffee table western anglo armour point of view so its sometimes hard to shake this.