Splinted armour/15th C.

[Ulfkell]

Could anyone tell me if splinted armour was used in the 15th C. for lower arm/leg protection?

[Bob H]

Possibly, but not probably. You're most likely to find it in the German states, Italy, and the Levant. Byzantium and Southern France are possibilities as well.

If you'll narrow your question in time and place, you'll get better answers.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Rene d'Anjou's Tourney Book shows some splinted forearm protection, and there are other depictions as well.

(on the right)
[img]http://www.medievalhorse.com/images/inspiration/6.jpg[/img]

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

http://nantescathedrale.free.fr/images/enluminure_charles_blois.jpg guy to the left of Charles has splinted cuisse and greaves. Hard to see in this image but on the cover of the Penguin Classics version of "The Chronicles" by Froissart that section is blown up.

[lorenzo2]

I agree the Rene tournament armour is likely splinted as the text mentions affixing rods to armour. The Froissart image is ambiguous and is just as likely cloth covered armour with decorative bits to hold the cloth down. Splinted armour would have been pretty out of date by the time the Bruges and other high end Froissarts were illustrated so it would seem unlikely that that is what is shown.

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

I agree the Rene tournament armour is likely splinted as the text mentions affixing rods to armour. The Froissart image is ambiguous and is just as likely cloth covered armour with decorative bits to hold the cloth down. Splinted armour would have been pretty out of date by the time the Bruges and other high end Froissarts were illustrated so it would seem unlikely that that is what is shown.

May be, but the rivets are in a straight pattern as if there is a metal splint under it.

[chef de chambre]

Rene d'Anjou's Tourney Book shows some splinted forearm protection, and there are other depictions as well.

(on the right)
[img]http://www.medievalhorse.com/images/inspiration/6.jpg[/img]

They are not.

They are leather armour, with braided cords, when you see the large images under his section describing the equipment. The rods mentioned in passing, are actually wood, of all things, and he mentions them as inferior tournament equipment in Flanders.

To answer the orignal poster. No . If you are looking for evidence of 14th century composite leather and latten bar defences - in combat - no evidence for them in the 15th century at all.

[Bob H]

Thanks, Bob, I was hoping that you'd reply to this.

[^]

They are leather armour, with braided cords, when you see the large images under his section describing the equipment. The rods mentioned in passing, are actually wood, of all things, and he mentions them as inferior tournament equipment in Flanders.

I'd love to see the evidence or reasoning that they are wood.

[chef de chambre]

They are leather armour, with braided cords, when you see the large images under his section describing the equipment. The rods mentioned in passing, are actually wood, of all things, and he mentions them as inferior tournament equipment in Flanders.

I'd love to see the evidence or reasoning that they are wood.

The reasoning is, that in the text, they are *glued* on. I'd love to see the evidence for the possibility of gluing on rods of latten or iron, and how that would work.

[Ulfkell]

Thanks for the help.
I'm taking my dear sweet time in putting together a mid 15th C. Italian kit.
I have done a lot of image searches and didn't find anything. I figured I'd ask anyway.
Thanks again.

[^]

They are leather armour, with braided cords, when you see the large images under his section describing the equipment. The rods mentioned in passing, are actually wood, of all things, and he mentions them as inferior tournament equipment in Flanders.

I'd love to see the evidence or reasoning that they are wood.

The reasoning is, that in the text, they are *glued* on. I'd love to see the evidence for the possibility of gluing on rods of latten or iron, and how that would work.

That really isn't very good reasoning, because you question if something can be done it must be something else. Ironically I think there might be some merit to the idea of wood despite your reasoning.

As for those depicted in that image from the Chronicles by Froissart there are a bunch in there and they are found in various altar pieces and manuscripts from the Low Countries across the 15th century. Iconographically they seem to match or approximate armor depicted in late-14th century German and at least one Italian effigy. I don't have a personal opinion as to whether or not they represent something in use in the 15th century or not.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

They are leather armour, with braided cords, when you see the large images under his section describing the equipment. The rods mentioned in passing, are actually wood, of all things, and he mentions them as inferior tournament equipment in Flanders.

I'd love to see the evidence or reasoning that they are wood.

The reasoning is, that in the text, they are *glued* on. I'd love to see the evidence for the possibility of gluing on rods of latten or iron, and how that would work.

There are at least three copies of Rene’s book in the BN Paris. Both the BN MS 2693 and 2695 have plates showing the Duke of Brittany (white with black ermine) and the Duke of Bourbon (blue with gold fleur de lis) fighting with swords. In both the 2693 and 2695 ms’s, the Duke of Bourbon wears vambraces quite different than those depicted in the armour detail plates and appear to be splinted steel over leather with steel discs trimmed in red at the elbow. The applied “rodsâ€

[Black Swan Designs]

The leg harness is in the same style that you wear for war, without any difference, except that the smallest guards are the best, and sollerets are very useful against the points of spurs. --Rene's Book of the Tournament

So some tourney armour was exactly the same as worn for war.

Just to be clear, in our version, (the one Jeff is referencing) the 'white [arm] harness' is silver/grey, the 'cuir boulli' arm harness is tan with creamy tan braided cords. The arm harness worn by the Duke of Bourbon is tan with silver strips, and a silver roundel at the elbow joint. Jeff is interpreting the silver bits of the Duke's armour as metal, based on the colour in the 'white harness' illo, which is shown as the same silver/grey and described as 'white harness', presumably of metal.

Gwen

[chef de chambre]

I would not suggest using the illustrations from multiple editions of a single source as being a good argument that an obsolete form of armour was likely used, outside of the context of Rene's listing of equipment for the mounted melee.

Two things should be noted, while specialized equipment wasn't as varied as the specialized tournament equipment of the 16th century, surely specialized equipment did exist for the tournament. Rene's book is chock full of examples of such equipment that has no other use, from the 4 finger wide swords, to the caged bascinets, to the batons used by the contenders, down to the hourds the horses wear.

I have never seen any documentary evidence for splinted limb defenses used in warfare in the mid 15th century. They surely aren't listed in any contemporary documents, outside of what may be taken to be the single reference of Rene's text, and that only in reference to what clearly is a piece of equipment for the tournament.

[Black Swan Designs]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone saying that specialized armour did -not- exist. As a point of fact, Jeff says 'the armour Rene shows could be specialized tournament armour, and may not be typical for field/war harness, given the number of surviving vambraces and vambrace elements of plate.'

The original question was simply could anyone tell me if splinted armour was used in the 15th C. for lower arm/leg protection? There was no qualifier as to war only / tournament only, or how common it was, only was it used.

The images in 2 versions of Rene seem to support the argument that yes, in some cases, a type of splinted arm defense was recommended and worn in some tournaments in the 15th C.

Gwen

(fixed weird triple post foo)

[gr ben]

there is also this painting

[Baron Alcyoneus]

[quote="Jeffrey Hedgecock"]There are at least three copies of Rene’s book in the BN Paris. Both the BN MS 2693 and 2695 have plates showing the Duke of Brittany (white with black ermine) and the Duke of Bourbon (blue with gold fleur de lis) fighting with swords. In both the 2693 and 2695 ms’s, the Duke of Bourbon wears vambraces quite different than those depicted in the armour detail plates and appear to be splinted steel over leather with steel discs trimmed in red at the elbow. The applied “rodsâ€

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Mantegna's Madonna of Victory shows some "Medieval fantasy armor" on the right. (c1496)
http://www.ocaiw.com/galleria_maestri/i ... 1749&name=

[pfeiffer-perkuhn]

Here is another piece of splinted Armour:


I think its quite interesting, because his breast plate looks if it should be worn with a large tournament helmet. I think the Arms are the lighter Armour of a Set of Armour, changable for war and tournament.

[chef de chambre]

Yes, but that is a splint in the actual 15th century usage, meaning a demicannon of the vambrace, couter, and rerebrace. The original poster was asking about cuirboli with added strips of iron or latten reenforce, which, not to beat a dead horse, seems to have very little if any actual evidence for that late in time.

[chef de chambre]

I should add, as you suggest, I have a composite 'garniture' of a harness, consisting of mix and match pieces allowing for a light half armour up to a complete harness with armet, and full pauldrons, etc. When you look through the documentary evidence such as inventories, you find a lot of evidence for the practise.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

[chef de chambre]

Have you read the context the image was pulled from? Or are you just going by how it looks?

[Mac]

Chef,

Are you working with Dr. Elizabeth Bennet's translation of King Rene'?

Mac

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Madonna of Victory
Andrea Mantegna
1496
Tempera on canvas, 280 x 166 cm
Paris, Musee du Louvre

[chef de chambre]

The madonna of victory depicts an arming doublet, with a 'jack chain', I believe.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

No, it has splints on the upper arms, as well as the lower that are riveted(visible in a larger photo) to the leather, additionally you can see the rivets from the splints on the narrow steel band on the cuff.

[btswanfury]

To the OP:

The answer is, "it depends." Is there evidence for splinted armour being used in the 15th century? Yes, there is, as evidenced by the answers shown above.

However, the strength of this evidence, and whether or not the evidence actually depicts what some are saying it does, is a matter of conjecture. It's up to you to determine whether or not to use it or not. Different people have different standards of evidence. The harshest, purest folks are going to say to not use it. Splinted armour was old-fashioned, out-dated, and uncommon enough to question whether or not it even existed in the 15th century. The most "open to interpretation" folks are going to tell you that yes, it was used as evidenced by the illustrations, and that while it would be uncommon, it is certainly plausible.

Your mileage will vary depending on your preference, conservativism with the record, and your budget