Mid 15th Cent Brig work.

waveicle · Post by **waveicle** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:11 pm

Here is the next installment of stuff I made but never bothered to post on the AA. I made this Brig outfit using the patterns from Craig Nadler:

http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/brig_craig1.html

The resulting plate set I gave to a good friend of mine as a gift. Heâ€™ll be making the garment section of this 15 cent. body. Weâ€™ll have brass nails made since the commercial fasteners never have a large enough head.

I first saved a great deal of time getting some 18 ga mild steel sheet sheared into three widths. The first set of strips were for all the straight plates, second for the curved plates and the final panels are for everything that needed to be free hand band sawed. All plates were flexible back belt edge sanded and then deburred with a fine grade 8â€

matthijs · Post by **matthijs** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:29 pm

We’ll have brass nails made since the commercial fasteners never have a large enough head.

When using a densely woven heavy linen (900g/m^2 IIRC) I find the heads of normal dome headed 4*6 mm rivets set in triplets hardly ever pull through. 5 or 6 on the whole brigandine after several years of use. I forced the holes between the threads with an awl rather than punching.

Maybe you could make a punch, something like a center punch with a recessed dome at the tip, to flatten and widen the heads a bit.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:37 pm

Now THAT is inspiration.

When you vend the brass nails with custom heads, would you consider expanding your order and letting us buy a few boxes? I wouldn't mind 5-10 lbs for a future project. I might be able to find some other people off the archive who are interested.

Sean

Johannes The Bald · Post by **Johannes The Bald** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:34 pm

Wow, That is damn cool.

I look forward to seeing it when completed.

Johannes Machiavelli

Patrick Marshall · Post by **Patrick Marshall** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:21 pm

Hey I second that on the nail order, I'd be willing to put in for say 5 lbs. Let me know

Pat marshall

Tancred de Lanvellec · Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:07 pm

Count me in for the rivets as well!

Giles de Bois Guilbert · Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:14 pm

I would be interested as well.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:59 am

If the nails are good and you don't mind sharing I'd take 10-20 pounds. I'll even arrange the order if you don't want to do so.

^ · Post by ^ » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:02 pm

Talbot wrote:If the nails are good and you don't mind sharing I'd take 10-20 pounds. I'll even arrange the order if you don't want to do so.

I don't suppose you could see if we could get an order big enough to get the brig nails designed by Chef and have you put the excess up for sale for the future.

Kalle Ommer · Post by **Kalle Ommer** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:28 pm

Piers Brent wrote:I don't suppose you could see if we could get an order big enough to get the brig nails designed by Chef and have you put the excess up for sale for the future.

ThatÂ´s an awfully good idea. How much of an order do you need for that?

Colin D · Post by **Colin D** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:04 pm

Last time it was 100 pounds.

Ken Mondschein · Post by **Ken Mondschein** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:14 pm

That's quite nice. For those of us without the time and shop equipment, I wonder if it the process could be reproduced cheaply by some of the Indian shops.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:55 pm

Piers Brent wrote:
Talbot wrote:If the nails are good and you don't mind sharing I'd take 10-20 pounds. I'll even arrange the order if you don't want to do so.
I don't suppose you could see if we could get an order big enough to get the brig nails designed by Chef and have you put the excess up for sale for the future.

I'm game. How do we need to proceed? I could use several thousand. I woudl need Chef's permission (of course) and the contact info for the company. I'll organize the order.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:06 pm

If you are ordering the nails Bob used put me down for 3 brigs worth, not sure how many lbs needed for a brig???

waveicle · Post by **waveicle** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:42 pm

Hey guys, seems like this thread is taking an interesting turn left. As of right now, I have no ETA on any nails. This project might not be done until Summer. At one point I was thinking of taking a specific brass rivet that I use that's thin and long and some how pressing the head flat with a shaped die. But that's a lot work I really don't want to do.

Couple of questions:

Does anyone have specs and pictures of the nails that Chef had made?

Doug - I might be interested in joining you guys for a bulk order if the nails are compatible, please.
Could someone post some historic examples that have decorative heads? Is there such a thing?

Diedrich/Waveicle

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:45 pm

The nails Bob used were IIRC moulded directly from nails on a Brig at the Royal armouries Leeds. I've seen the originals and Bobs copy and they are identical.

waveicle · Post by **waveicle** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:49 pm

Thomas - ok thanks I'll do a search on the Leeds suit. What's kills me is I was there with a camera before I tought of doing this project ... Do the shafts terminate in a point?

Bob = Chef? I don't know him personally. I'm not too savy on who's who here at the AA.

D/W

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:53 pm

Bob reed is Chef, yes.

I believe they did terminate in a point to facilitate pushing them through the fabric, as opposed to weakening it by cutting holes thorugh fibres.

I'll probably be at the RA this weekend to photograph the Brigs a bit better.

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:35 am

I presume this is the one?

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:17 am

Regarding the rivets, Im game too.

Wavecicle.....since Im nearby you, Id love to see this thing in person.

Ive yet to do any tinning of plates so Id welcome the chance to see how you do it.

Colin D · Post by **Colin D** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:42 pm

The reproductions

http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/tmp/brig_nails.jpg

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:16 am

Wavecicle that is looking good.

Medieval Miscreant · Post by **Medieval Miscreant** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:56 pm

Do all extant examples have the rivets grouped in 3's? What I've seen online points in that direction. Would / could 1 of Doug's brass rosette studs be used in lieu of the three smaller ones?

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:59 pm

It COULD if you really, really wanted but it is nt the way this ind of Brig was made. Groups of three are the thing that defines this style.

Medieval Miscreant · Post by **Medieval Miscreant** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:08 pm

Thomas H,

Thanks. What would be the correct size of the rivet head? 1/4" to 3/8"? I'm not the greatest at adjusting scales. I like the rosettes, but I don't think they'd fit in 3's.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:14 pm

They are around 4mm give or take a little.

Try not to think of the shape of the head as a rosette. It is more of a standard nail with a chisel cut decoration.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:22 pm

Medieval Miscreant wrote:Do all extant examples have the rivets grouped in 3's? What I've seen online points in that direction. Would / could 1 of Doug's brass rosette studs be used in lieu of the three smaller ones?

They do not. It basically depends on which century's style of brig you want. This is the earlier sort of brig with the larger plates, and it has room on the plate to group the nayles in little triangles.

Next century, they were making brigs of plates that were smaller and more numerous. There wasn't room to put triangles of rivets, so they were simply put in straight rows, say four rivets per small plate. This often produced a characteristic grouping of short straight lines of rivets like so: .... .... .... .... and then the same again the next row of plates, not very much farther down the brig's shell garment. They weren't staggered or imbricated, but had the plates disposed in vertical rows down the brigandine. The plates still overlapped to the sides, hence the small regular gaps in the rivet rows.

Code: Select all

This                                Not This
.... .... .... ....               .... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....                 .... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....               .... .... .... ....
only even closer together.

Raeven · Post by **Raeven** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:37 pm

I'd be up for 5 pounds of these rivets also, if it's still available.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:08 am

Medieval Miscreant wrote:Do all extant examples have the rivets grouped in 3's? What I've seen online points in that direction. Would / could 1 of Doug's brass rosette studs be used in lieu of the three smaller ones?

Of course, I'd love it if you wanted to use mine...

The rosettes are better suited to the 14th century and the early 15th century. They are great on coats of plates and corrazinas, wisby gauntlets and other slightly earlier armour.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:39 pm

I saw the brigs this weekend and wish to alter my previous assumption. The heads seem to be around 6mm now i had a fresh look.

Sorry about the quality, i was playing around with the settings on my camera.

http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f223/ ... CI2199.jpg

There will be a video up in a minute or so. check back for more pics.

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:58 am

Actually the rivets that Chef (Bob) used were made from a casting of an extant nail on a brig plate at the Higgins not the RA. I'll be sure to bring this thread to his attention.

Jenn

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:04 am

Hey Jenn,
I sent Bob a PM about it. If you'd point this thread out it would be awesome.

Thanks

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:16 pm

Details of RA brig nail heads:

Tom

Medieval Miscreant · Post by **Medieval Miscreant** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:09 pm

I've been looking around and came across these rivets. I know Split Rivets were not used in period. I was thinking that maybe if the split was pushed together, that it might make it go through the material easier. Then they can be clipped and peened. They even seem to be close to the right size. Do they look too modern to be used on a repro brig?

Link:
http://www.brettunsvillage.com/leather/parts/rivets.htm

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:19 pm

nice find. i thought the same thing when i saw the pic before i read what u wrote.

Mid 15th Cent Brig work.

Mid 15th Cent Brig work.

Nayles