How to improve your defense

GavinKyncade · Post by **GavinKyncade** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:12 am

OK, so I have been fighting since the spring, fought in a few tournys, and attend practice regularly (once a week) for the most part, save for an injury that caused me to hold off for a month till it healed.

And last night at practice I felt like a PEL for the rest of the fighters.
I got hit a lot, and other than bruises felt I didn't get a whole bunch out of the experience.

I did notice that I was failing a lot on my defenses and was getting hit a lot in the head. In fact we had a bunch of lefty's and they all went for the side of my head that was open and I just could not defend that as well as the rest of my body. Once fighter did show me that It was my failing to get my sword over the top of my head to the left side to cover the blow that made me think my sword blocks are seriously lacking.

Other than armoring up and just getting someone to hit me in various places without a shield what can I do to work on my sword blocks?

Thanks

Boomlaor · Post by **Boomlaor** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:19 am

rhythmic slow work. Build that muscle memory so that when you brain thinks "swordblock" your arm is already in the correct position.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:29 am

I could be that you just "leveled up".

Basically, it is not fun to pummel new fighters. There is no honor or improvement involved in desimating a new fighter. So, many/most experienced fighters will try and fight at just above the new fighters skill level during practice. This allows the new fighter to practice and learn, not just get to feel what it is like to stand at the back of the fighting line.

So, it could be that you have improved to a point that the other experienced fighters have "up" the level fighting you to keep you learning.

As to sword block training? I am not sure if that is a good option. I am a lefty and my bread and butter head shots don't usually come to the sword side on a right handed fighter.

If you are getting head shot by lefties on your sword side I would suggest working on shield blocking. When fighting a lefty, your sword side is also THEIR sword side. So, when they throw you should be throwing to, to capitalize on the fact that the left side of their body is open.

What type of shield are you useing?

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:30 am

Lefties have their sword on the side your shield ain't, so you need to consciously cock your shield farther over thataway when you fight 'em.

Eyes on your opponent's weapon.

Borrow and try fighting with as many different shield styles as you have access to and find the one you are most comfortable with; shield size, weight, shape, and strapping/gripping configuration can all work against you or for you.

But, mostly, practice, practice, and then some more practice.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:02 pm

Slow work helps. If it's a question of you not getting your sword into the correct position it is possible that your upper body or shoulder armor is limiting your movement. Consider doing some (LIGHT CONTACT) drill work without your body armor on, leg, helm, shield and sword. See if you can pick up the blocks better. Now put your armor on and see if you can make the same movements.

Alternatly just do drill work. Go out not intending to win but to block the forst 20 shots that your opponent throws. Pay attention to his body mechanics and range. Use your mobility. Possibly consider working with a smaller shield. My defensive training improved greatly after fighting with a buckler because I HAD to learn good defense rather then hiding behind a barn door.

Good luck!
Sean

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:12 pm

Against a lefty, the defense will be a bit different depnding on the kind of shield you are using.

However, generally speaking remeber "it's a sad set of feet that lets the ass take a beating". A lot of people seem to just stand in front of an opponent, either waiting for an opening or planning their next move. Good way ot get clubbed! Especially against a lefty, as right handed fighers tend to fall back into muscle memory, and then the opening appear (since they are now instictivley blocking a righty).

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:00 pm

How is your freedom of movement in your armour? When I started I made my own armour, and it restricted my arm movement especially in the shoulder. I got hit in the head a lot. After looking at some other kits, I fixed the armour so that I could get full rotation of arm and shoulder and instantly my defense improved.

I knew the armour was binding, but I thought all armour was like that. It isn't. :wink:

GavinKyncade · Post by **GavinKyncade** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:20 pm

OK, I think I gave the wrong sides when I was explaining my position.

Face to Face with a Lefty, I have a heater shield strapped, its about 22" x 30" (covers my torso) It's made from wood so not real heavy but not light either. The left-handed fighter hitting me is hitting me on the left side of my head or my shield side. My sword is between parallel to the ground just above my head, to a 45 degree angle pointing upwards. So a gap exists on the left side of my head above my shield and the sword.

I was able to block the blow after serveral tries by tipping my sowrd point down to my heater and then the fighters blow would be blocked.

Plus the fighters all had either a white or red belt so they had some pretty good speed. I was not able to beat there speed to block or they just caught me napping at the beginning of the fight. I would usualy get hit right as we called "Lay-On".

As far as mobility, I have no paulders on the shoulders, just some plate arms, chest, kidney belt, and plate 3/4 legs with demi-greeves. In steel toed boots, Heater, Sword, and Leather Demi-gauntlets. I can move pretty good and pretty sure I could do jumping jacks with out to much trouble. So Binding armor is most likely not my problem.

I think standing still, and being in Range at the beginning of the fight probably contributes to the most of my problems. And I feel my sword blocking could be better.

I will try just doing some defense fighting and not throwing a stick until after 15-20 attempts by my opponent to see if that helps my stick and shield defensive work.

Thanks for all the advise.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:49 pm

How many times have you fought someone left handed? What's your opponette is doing throwing a backhand shot over your shield.

Solution #1: hit them. This is the prefered solution. Learn to have a quick, accurate and hard wrap shot. Learn to have a better backhand than they have. Learning shots is a matter of pell-work and practice.

Solution #2: Move, very quickly, to your right. This will lessen the impact of the shot.

Solution #3: Move, very, very quickly backwards and block your head with your shield. This works, but it takes time to learn, and is not always effective.

Solution #4: block with your sword. This is the least prefer method, because you can't always move into the correct postion. Also, blocking with your sword disarms you for a moment. You can't attack, which you can't win the fight.

Strangely enough, I use solution #4 too often.

Mord.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:54 pm

In between rounds watch your opponents, and study how the left handed fighters are setting up - mirror what you see them doing
They're open everywhere you are, they're just more experienced at facing what is for them an of handed fighter

GavinKyncade · Post by **GavinKyncade** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:58 pm

Mord wrote:How many times have you fought someone left handed?

I try to avoid Wrong-handed fighters like the plague

Actually I fight one or two at every practice, however this practice we had a LOT of Lefty's, like I said most of them were belted too!!

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:34 pm

Here are the A-B-C's of the situation you describe:
A: Block their sword with your shield while you hit them with your sword.

B: Hit them with your sword while you block their sword with your shield.

C: Block their sword with your shield while you hit them with your sword.

Don't work on sword blocking shots on your shield side. Those should be shield blocks and your sword should be hitting the openings made when they swing their sword.

Against lefties, set up exactly as you normally would against a righty. Then shift your back leg away from their sword This will keep your shield in the same position relative to your body but interpose it relative to their sword. This is much better than trying to reach over with your shield, straining your shield arm and changing all of the positioning relative to your body that you are familiar with.

Lefties hate righties who know how to fight them every bit as much as righties hate lefties

and for laughs, watch two lefties who don't normally fight against lefties square off.

Proxus · Post by **Proxus** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:21 pm

Practice as you would practice for any other sport.

EG: In HS wrestling we would practice takedowns first 10x against imaginary opponent, (pellwork), 10x against a team mate at 1/2 speed for resistance to improve technique, again at 3/4 speed. Then when it comes time to practice a match when you see the opening or in this case the shot coming in muscle memory takes over.

Hope that helps a bit.

freiman the minstrel · Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:03 pm

This came up at practice for the last two weeks. I have a nasty head cold, and I am drinking robitussen, so check this with your trainer.

I am still working this out. I think I almost have it.

There are four elements to defense. These are ranked by effectiveness.

1) Don't let him attack you effectively.
2) Don't be where he can attack you.
3) block with your shield
4) block with your sword.

the thing is, the four are listed in order of effectiveness, but pretty much (results may vary) in reverse order of ease of implementation. In other words, it is easier to basket block than to convince Duke Paul he cannot beat you.

To get the gist for number four, ask your practice partner to place the weapon up against your head, and then put your weapon in the spot where it interposes with the blow. You will find that you have to move the weapon very little to stay safe. There are some tricks to it, but within a couple of practices, you turtle can be very, very strong. The downside is that you are essentially unable to attack. You are forced to give your opponent a chance to let you kill them. This is enough to beat 99% of newer fighters. It's an easy trick to master.

The gist for number three is to remember that your opponent's attack has to move from their shoulder to your body, and use your sheild to get in the way of that desire. The trick with this one is to remember that their weapon has to move in a torus (doughnut shape) that is centered on their shoulder. The weapon's tip always has to move in an arc (a section of a circle) centered on the shoulder. There is a pivot point at the wrist, but in general, if you disrupt that arc, they cannot attack you effectively. It is not so tough to get down.

The gist for number two is to remember that anyplace that your opponents sword cannot go is a safe place, and people have to move in particular ways. They cannot attack across their own bodies, and they cannot strike through their own shields. If you are standing diametrically opposite their weapon, they are harmless. Once you get this lesson, the world opens up. This is a difficult lesson to grasp.

The gist for number one is to convince your opponent that they have to fight your way, I simply don't have this lesson down. This very basic mental/emotional/psychological trick is the reason that makes it possible for second rate technique and poor footwork to become dukes. They are able to convince their opponents that they are much better than they are, and that those opponents are fighting for fun, and not for victory. Part of the answer is to be aware or the mental state of your opponent, Part of it is to manipulate the mental state of that same opponent, and part of it is to simply swamp them with attacks, but I have never put all the parts together. I am not sure that it is easily translated into written language.

Good luck.

freiman

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:28 pm

I like Insane's comment about leveling up. As you get better (or they perceive your comfort level increasing) your opponents may be holding back less.

If it's only against the lefties, then it sounds like no one has told you how to fight a lefty properly. If you're not used to it, then you can't approach a left handed (sinister) fighter the way you would a righty ...you're fighting a mirror image of yourself, so your guard, stance and shield positions will be very different. If you fight lefties like you fight a righty, you're positioning yourself exactly the way they want you to be.

There are different approaches to a sinister fighter, Duke Logan Ebonwoulfe does something we in the north called "Turtling", I'm not sure what the proper term is, as no one I know locally understands what he's doing to make it work so well. But it does work (for him).

If you're fighting oldcastle style then you want to do some things that are counterintuitive to what you've been tought to fight a righty. But I"d have to show you. I don't think I could explain it in words. And then you tend to do feints and tapping blows in an attempt to get them to open up.

The problem with sinisters is that they "usually" fight right handed fighters, so they get their system down pretty quickly on how to fight you. And ironically, I've seen some left handed people forget how to fight another lefty because it's been so long since they had to do the off-handed type of guard. And they laugh at themselves because they leave themselves wide open for shots.
-Cian

Milan H · Post by **Milan H** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:19 pm

Id highly suggest fighting purely defensively for a bit. Keep your sword there, but dont throw. Tell your partner what you are doing and to keep going. If you get hit, keep going. do this till you are blocking better, then fight normal. Alternate back and forth so you can integrate your defense with offense. (otherwise you'll start blocking all the time and not countering)

Try not to focus on sword blocks. If you are blocking with your sword as you described, you run the risk an anviling habit. Further, you will not be throwing shots that you need to win. practice of course, but don't make it a habit against lefties.

Lefties are strange to fight at first, but as a local lefty i know says.... "lots of lefties make a career on being left handed." Once you learn the tricks they use, it becomes a whole different fight for the righty.

Best of luck!

Paul the Small · Post by **Paul the Small** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:10 am

Ask questions at practice. If someone hits you with the same shot two times in a row, stop the fight and ask them what shot it is they're throwing and how to block it. Most of the time they will know the answer and you can adjust accordingly.

The best way to learn is to ask questions.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:19 am

I would like to see a pic of you in armour. Many questions can be answered by seeing what you are wearing.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:35 am

GavinKinkade wrote:OK, I think I gave the wrong sides when I was explaining my position.

Face to Face with a Lefty, I have a heater shield strapped, its about 22" x 30" (covers my torso) It's made from wood so not real heavy but not light either. The left-handed fighter hitting me is hitting me on the left side of my head or my shield side. My sword is between parallel to the ground just above my head, to a 45 degree angle pointing upwards. So a gap exists on the left side of my head above my shield and the sword.

Yeah, ok I see what you are saying now. YES, that shot is in the leftie bread and butter manual. :twisted:

Basically you are setting up so that from a lefties stand point you create a perfect slot for them to throw into. Look at the examples below and see how to fix it:

Paul the Small · Post by **Paul the Small** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:54 am

InsaneIrish wrote:
Yeah, ok I see what you are saying now. YES, that shot is in the leftie bread and butter manual.

Basically you are setting up so that from a lefties stand point you create a perfect slot for them to throw into. Look at the examples below and see how to fix it:

I didn't know there was a written manuel. That is so cool!

GavinKyncade · Post by **GavinKyncade** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:54 am

INsaneIrish,

Thats exactly my problem! The visual is perfect, complete with a what to do.

I did stop the fight and asked the fighter what shot it was he was throwing and he explained it to me, I did figure out that tipping my sword down helped, but I left it parralel at the begining of the fight leaving that slot open, and well I am just not fast enough to get the tip back down to protect that slot when he threw it afterwards.

So in the future against lefties, I will position my sword more in a downward angle to protect that slot, and I also did not move my right foot backwards, which you should do when you set up against a lefty, I instead would shift my shield to the right and leave my foot positioned normaly. So my moving the foot back, and postioning my sword tip downward to protect that slot, my shoulder and arm will be farther back also protecting my sword arm too.

Thanks MUCH!

PS it was the current King that I was fighting so he was a whole lot better than me

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:32 am

I honestly prefer "FIX #2" to solve that situation. It allows you to keep the sword free to strike as that shot comes it.

It takes more practice to learn, but your defense is FAR better in the long run.

The shrug technique was taught to my by my knight BaronMal.

GavinKyncade · Post by **GavinKyncade** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:42 am

I will keep FIX #2 in mind, but it seems slower to do, than a sword block.
And as others have said a shield block is better because it leaves the sword free for attacking.

I will give them a try.

Peace

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:45 am

GavinKinkade wrote:I will keep FIX #2 in mind, but it seems slower to do, than a sword block.
And as others have said a shield block is better because it leaves the sword free for attacking.

I will give them a try.

Peace

Not really, The illustration actually over exagerates the movement for illustration purposes. The "shrug" is really only slightly MORE than a normal "I don't know" shrug.

This block is also only 1 part of an entire blocking system for the heater shield based on shrugs and rotations that maximizes the use of the heaters corners. This is why I say it is a far superior blocking technique than the sword block.

I don't have illustrations (yet) of any of the other blocking parts to the technique though.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:10 pm

Irish, I would advocate a FIX #3

but I lack the skills to diagram it.

Your illustrations show a very squared off stance (itself a fundamental error against an opposite handed fighter) and a very closed shield form.

I advocate a more open shield form, and a stance more perpendicular to the opponent (where your diagram is parallel to the opponent).

From this guard, you block the head shot with the front corner, not the rear. Frequently this guard in its starting position has the corner high enough that a flat snap is already blocked and the attack must angle downward over the shield.

One advantage it has, particularly against a leftie, is that, compared to FIX #2, it doesn't create an opening to the body and inside of the leg when you block your head.

My suggestion may result in a more exposed shield leg - depending on the relative size of the heater being used. However, I will always recommend trading a leg for a sword arm

GavinKyncade · Post by **GavinKyncade** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:11 pm

who knew shrugs could be so effective

I will experiment with them and that technique and see what I can do.

Thanks again
G

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:44 pm

Kilkenny wrote:Irish, I would advocate a FIX #3 but I lack the skills to diagram it.

Your illustrations show a very squared off stance (itself a fundamental error against an opposite handed fighter) and a very closed shield form....

Yeah, the Illustrations were done pretty quick. And they are a bit squared off. I would like to do a bunch of stuff like this and put it in a book, but I do have some obsticles:

1. doing an illustration that allows me to change it and move it around relatively easily while still showing depth.

2. KNOWING where to put said illustartion. I am by no means an expert, especially in shield forms like Heater.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:53 pm

InsaneIrish wrote:
Kilkenny wrote:Irish, I would advocate a FIX #3 but I lack the skills to diagram it.

Your illustrations show a very squared off stance (itself a fundamental error against an opposite handed fighter) and a very closed shield form....

Yeah, the Illustrations were done pretty quick. And they are a bit squared off. I would like to do a bunch of stuff like this and put it in a book, but I do have some obsticles:

1. doing an illustration that allows me to change it and move it around relatively easily while still showing depth.

2. KNOWING where to put said illustartion. I am by no means an expert, especially in shield forms like Heater.

Add in that demonstrably expert individuals have very different opinions and it really gets difficult

You have to pick a style and go with it.

Is it a coincidence that "demon" appears in "demonstrably" in this context :twisted:

bigfredb · Post by **bigfredb** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:10 pm

GavinKinkade wrote:I did notice that I was failing a lot on my defenses and was getting hit a lot in the head. In fact we had a bunch of lefty's and they all went for the side of my head that was open and I just could not defend that as well as the rest of my body. Once fighter did show me that It was my failing to get my sword over the top of my head to the left side to cover the blow that made me think my sword blocks are seriously lacking.

Other than armoring up and just getting someone to hit me in various places without a shield what can I do to work on my sword blocks?

Don't be shy!! Ask questions while you are on the field (at practice).

1. [practice] Since you are fairly new and still developing your fighting style, you may have some tendancies (habits) that your opponents are exploiting. If possible, ask your opponent to try to recreate the kill in slow motion so that you can 'see' what happened, then try to figure out how you can counter it.

2. [practice or tourney] If a Knight (or other respected, experienced fighter if no Knight is available) is around, ask him to watch you fight and get his feedback. Then work on his recommendations.

3. [practice or tourney] Get someone to Videotape your fights and review them carefully.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:11 pm

Irish -- while I agree with the diagram, minor tweaks aside, I have to ask -- why the emphasis on "a lefty"? That initial position screams "flat snap" to me (I fight right-handed).

Also worth mentioning -- just twitching up the corner won't always help. You either need to keep the sword where it is (thus rendering the justification of "keeping the sword arm free" false), or tuck your head *into* the shield -- usually in and to the right, so as not to blind oneself.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:20 pm

Dmitriy wrote:Irish -- while I agree with the diagram, minor tweaks aside, I have to ask -- why the emphasis on "a lefty"? That initial position screams "flat snap" to me (I fight right-handed).

No other emphasis than we were specifically talking about fighting lefties and that the off side "slot shot" to the face is a bread and butter shot for a leftie fighter.

Also worth mentioning -- just twitching up the corner won't always help. You either need to keep the sword where it is (thus rendering the justification of "keeping the sword arm free" false), or tuck your head *into* the shield -- usually in and to the right, so as not to blind oneself.

ducking the head combined with a shrug is one of many variations on the theme. That is part of the reason Kilkenny was pointing out that trying to draw a 2D picture of a 3D combined movement is hard.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:13 pm

Dmitriy wrote:Irish -- while I agree with the diagram, minor tweaks aside, I have to ask -- why the emphasis on "a lefty"? That initial position screams "flat snap" to me (I fight right-handed).

Hahaha... I thought of this too. Then I realized that it must be not the standard RH vs RH guard but a "bad" RH vs LH guard (that seems to be even worse vs. RH)

audax · Post by **audax** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:57 pm

Dilan wrote:Against a lefty, the defense will be a bit different depnding on the kind of shield you are using.

However, generally speaking remeber "it's a sad set of feet that lets the ass take a beating". A lot of people seem to just stand in front of an opponent, either waiting for an opening or planning their next move. Good way ot get clubbed! Especially against a lefty, as right handed fighers tend to fall back into muscle memory, and then the opening appear (since they are now instictivley blocking a righty).

Preach it, bra!

Cuan · Post by **Cuan** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:37 pm

I used to do pretty well against lefties. First, no one can hit you at lay on in the head. Period. That should never be an option (although I know it happens). First, point your left foot at your lefthanded opponents sword shoulder (this will naturally kick your shield over to the right a bit). Keep your left foot perpendicular to and about 18 inches behind your left foot. Now bend your knees just slightly. Assume this position at the limit of the lefty's offside blow (which is what they are using to hit you in the head). Carry your shield with the rim at a slight angle and extended. I mean by that that you can see your opponent with your left eye but not with your right due to the lead corner of the shield being in the way. Now, either dare the sumbitch to throw the offside OR you feint an offside (if you do the second, make sure your sword tip does not come forward of your hand or it won't end up as a feint). If he throws first, take a short jab step forward right in line with your lead foot, punch your shield into the slow part of his sword and then let your right foot come forward and pass right to the opponent's left side as you bust him in the ribs or thigh with a right cross. If you feint and he buys it and turtles up on his upper right quadrant, step through as before and paste him. For good measure, if you step THROUGH your opponent's left side instead of AROUND it, you will get a second shot at a guy bent over from a rib shot or dropping to his knees from a head shot. MOST IMPORTANT THING: DO NOT STOP IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS ATTACK, FINISH AND MOVE THROUGH. ASSESS THE DAMAGE YOU HAVE INFLICTED FROM OUT OF RANGE. Next time you go to practice remember that fighting lefties is a privilege. And at practice, if you hit a guy in the ribs or leg while learning to block your helmeted head (you better not be getting bruises on your head), that's a win in my book. After all, I never wore a limp for a week from a head shot. Once you get the hang of it, nothing could be easier. Just ask Han, or Anton, or Dilan - right Dilan?

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:51 pm

I used to have a serious problem with lefties. I recommend that you find the best ones you can and fight them. Learn. Do not give up.

Eventually, you will not have a problem with them.

How to improve your defense

How to improve your defense

Re: How to improve your defense