Gulf War rule change - No youth fighters in melees?

[Maelgwyn]

I have been informed that there has been a rule change affecting youth 16-17 who fight on the adult field. Unlike previous years, they will not be allowed to participate in the adult melees at Gulf War this year. This affects my son and two other fighters in our barony.

The notice I read stated:

FROM THE KINGDOM EARL MARSHAL:

The following information NEEDS to be disseminated IMMEDIATELY to all
parents and Marshals.

No one under the age of 18 will be allowed to participate in ANY melee activity where adults are combatants. There will be mirror battles run for the young men and women who wish to fight melee.

This is the result of a recent situation involving a minor injury in a melee. This is not something that is open to negotiation or a condition set in place by any Kingdom it simply is what it is.

Cedric

I assume this was originally from Sir Cedric, KEM Trimaris.

Can someone explain to me what this "minor injury" was, and why it would cause such a major impact on the war for several fighters who have been participating safely in melees for months or years? Many of our youth fighters are taller/heavier than some of our Counts so I'm having a hard time envisioning a safety risk that is specific to them.

By what process did this decision get made and go into effect? The statement "it simply is what it is" makes it sound like a decision of the SEM or the BoD but that is not specified. If this rule change was not set in place by any Kingdom, who made the decision? Why is it not open to discussion or negotiation? Why is it not even attributed to a source? Is this really how we make rules for our game?

The mirror battles are a thoughtful touch but hardly replace the full participation that these guys enjoyed in previous years. They'd be lucky to get enough fighters in this narrow age bracket for a 6v6 melee. Compare that to fighting in the units they have trained with in a battle involving over a hundred on each side, which they have been preparing for all year.

Now, if the real issue is liability rather than safety, perhaps it would be possible to run some battles twice so that any adults unwilling to take the risk of striking a fully armoured, authorized and waivered 16-year-old fighter can sit out. I suspect we would lose fewer fighters that way.

Maelgwyn

[Ulf Arnfinnson]

I have heard that it involves how the rules are written in Gleann Abhann and that it did involve the injury of a minor to bring it to light. It does not affect any other kingdoms except Gleann Abhann and once they get their rules re-written or changed minors will again be allowed to fight. From my understanding it will only be for this year. I also understand because I know of a few young adults that will not be able to fight this year.

Ulf Arnfinnson CSS LXXIX
Squire to Earl Daffydd Whitacer
Northern Regional Knight Marshal Ansteorra

[Maeryk]

East has (to my knowledge) been that way since day one. It's illegal here for an adult to hit a kid. Period. DOesn't matter why, or in what context. It's ILLEGAL. Whether you are a teacher spanking a student, a Sensei in a dojo, or some goob teaching a kid how to sword fight. If you are over 18 and they are under, and you hit them, it's legally actionable.

(And we figured that out BEFORE anyone got hurt and pulled out a lawsuit).

[John Widcombe]

Haven't heard anything about this over here in Gleann Abhann.
What is your source that it is a GA issue?

-John

[spearweasel]

That's absurd. Maelgwyn's son is a carded fighter, well equipped and trained. I've fought alongside him in wars before - he's young, but that just means he mends up better than the rest of us do the next day. He gives and receives hits as any fighter should.

[Maeryk]

That's absurd. Maelgwyn's son is a carded fighter, well equipped and trained. I've fought alongside him in wars before - he's young, but that just means he mends up better than the rest of us do the next day. He gives and receives hits as any fighter should.

All well and good, but if the law (as it does here, not sure about there) says "It's illegal for someone age X to strike someone under age X" it doesn't MATTER how great the young fella is.. it's still illegal.

WHich is what we ran across over here.

[Ulf Arnfinnson]

"Haven't heard anything about this over here in Gleann Abhann.
What is your source that it is a GA issue? "

It is what was disscussed at our Red Tape Marshallet meeting as far as Gulf War and minors are concern. Who, what, when and where has just come down the grape vine no direct information just what I had heard from others.

Ulf Arnfinnson CSS LXXIX
Squire to Earl Daffyd Whitacer
Northern Regional Knight Marshal Ansteorra

[/quote]

[Owyn]

All well and good, but if the law (as it does here, not sure about there) says "It's illegal for someone age X to strike someone under age X" it doesn't MATTER how great the young fella is.. it's still illegal.

WHich is what we ran across over here.

You mean "Massachusetts", right? Not "here" in general. Most of the northeast US still has sane laws regarding child safety in contact athletics. Vermont, Maine, NH, and I think NY all still allow child-instructor contact if that contact is part of the training. The EK has to have one set of rules for the entire kingdom, though, so we have to set our rules for minors based on the most stringent state, not based on the majority.

Just didn't want everyone to think we were ALL daft out here - just a few of us.

Without being part of the rules planning group, I can only suggest why they might have changed the rules for Gulf Wars. I would suspect that it is a coupling of two things:

1) Laws ARE getting tighter around youth-adult physical contact in many areas.

2) Melees are not well-supervised, easily controlled events. The perceived risk by the non-SCA public is therefore much higher.

Together, that means someone probably figured out that while a 1 vs 1 duel is probably very comparable to a martial arts instructor sparring a youth student in class (legal almost everywhere) a melee is not a controlled environment, so the potential liability, should an injury occur to a minor hit by an adult in an unsupervised environment goes up - substantially. Unfortunate, but true. =(

Remember, our federal (and Supreme, iirc) courts have ruled that waivers DO NOT actually waive the right to sue if negligence is involved, and a court could very well rule that a minor allowed to enter a not well supervised mass melee was a victim of negligence.

[freiman the minstrel]

Bad Cheese.

Parental waiver.

There is no way that Gulf Wars is more brutal that Texas JuCo football.

Same age group.

f

[Murdock]

probly has to do with Mississipi liability laws

[Maeryk]

Bad Cheese.

Parental waiver.

There is no way that Gulf Wars is more brutal that Texas JuCo football.

Same age group.

f

Yup. But it's only peer group in that instance. As well as being part of a school program which carries it's own insurance, and has oversight.

Ya, rly. We went through ALL of this when starting the Youth Combat program here.

"Parental Waiver's" dont mean you can violate the law just cause you signed something.

[Blackoak]

I have not heard about this either, and it has never been brought up on the GA chiv list. I will ask our KEM and try and get you an answer.

We fought against Melgwyn & his son at Bordermarch, and Gleann Abhann didn't have issue there.

Uric

[Dauyd]

Does anybody know- does this apply to only Armoured Combat, or is Rapier included in this?

[LR of E]

Unless something has changed rapier was included in this.

Morgan
KEM-Meridies

[St. George]

This makes no sense. How is High School varisty wrestling, football or any other sport allowed where 18 and 19 years olds routinely play against and hit minors?

Or is there a double standard and a waiver for these actions?

g-

[raito]

This makes no sense. How is High School varisty wrestling, football or any other sport allowed where 18 and 19 years olds routinely play against and hit minors?

At least around here, if you're in still high school you're still a minor, regarless of age.

Now boxing, on the other hand, does allow mixed minor/adult competition.

[Blackoak]

Maelgwyn, this is no longer the case. The original ruling has been changed to ALLOW minors (with consent) to fight.

Let me know if you have any questions. Hope to see you there.

Uric

[Ceddie]

Maelgwyn, this is no longer the case. The original ruling has been changed to ALLOW minors (with consent) to fight.

Let me know if you have any questions. Hope to see you there.

Uric

Really.
While I was aware of a solution in the works, I was not aware the Crowns or the Earl Marshals had finalized anything.

[Maelgwyn]

Our KEM has announced:

Greetings Ansteorra!!

There has recently been a flurry of discussion regarding whether or not the youth would be allowed to participate in melees at Gulf War this year. The Society Earl Marshall has decided to allow our youth fighters to fight under their home kingdoms combat rules. Yes, this does mean that 16 and 17 year olds will be joining us on the field of battle this year, excluding the experimental battles taking place. These experimental battles include: the great weapon on great weapon battle, and the bridge battle that follows the bridge war point battle (allowing 2 inch thrusting tips on fiberglass spears).

So my guys are back in the game but 16-17 year old fighters in some kingdoms (specifically Gleann Abhann as I understand it) may still have a problem.

I'm still curious about the original incident. It appears that a minor injury lead to discussions that may have revealed some flaw in the current Gleann Abhann rules. I hope that they can institute any needed rule change in a timely manner, with appropriate levels of discussion and input from the fighting community. I know that there are some young GA fighters that deserve their shot at glory along side the rest of us. Waiting a year can seem trivial to us old guys but it is forever when you are 16.

[Blackoak]

Gleann Abhann does allow the older youth to fight in melees. There was a recent injury that caused the rule to be questioned. It has since been resolved here.

Uric

[Druigy]

As I can see, the Mill has been working overtime.
Let me, as the EM Gleann Abhann, set a few things straight, or at least permently crooked.
We had an injury issue with a Heavy weapons fighter from another kingdom who was 17. Sadly, there was no way to tell he was under age.
Society said no, he should not have been allowed to fight because GA says no to youth in adult melees.
Society now says yes, if they are allowed to in thier home kingdom.
Between those two rulings, I had to make a policy and get the other kngdoms to agree.
Now to change it, We (the Crowns and EM) have to agree to the change.
That has not happened, YET.
When it does, the crows and EMs of the 4 Principle Kingdoms will start sounding the horn.

Any questions?

Duke Padruig dubhChlogad, EM Gleann Abhann

[Maelgwyn]

Thank you for the update and clarification. May your discussions with the various Crowns and EMs be pleasant and productive. I look forward to hearing the final word on this matter.

Assuming all goes well, I'm looking forward to seeing significant numbers of young heroes on both sides at Gulf.

[Ouzel Von Schwartzwolfe]

the laws of the state you are fighting in should also be looked at on a case by case bases. Dont you think?? fighting in a melee is not considered training under any law.

every one seems to be over looking that training to fight and fighting are not the same thing

[Ceddie]

this just in:

The official policy will now be as follows: We will allow youth to fight in the melees, as long as it is legal in their home kingdoms to do so.

Please let your people know A.S.A.P.

Duke Padruig

[Druigy]

Dang, Ceddie beat me to it!!!

Padruig