To keep from derailing this other thread Period vs. Competitive I started a separate thread.
In the referenced thread, there was a poll that asked the following:
Æiric Ørvender wrote:Given the choice would you choose to enter a list or melee using the period correct weapons of your persona or would you rather choose weapons that although not correct for your persona/time period would place you on a more even footing competitively?
The underlying implication here is that a period kit cannot be competitive. Do you believe this to be the case? Why do you think this?
I am interested in your thoughts on this. Please post them.
<edited>
Brandr
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freiman the minstrel wrote:It's easy to be average. That's why so many people are achieving it.
Torg from Sluggy Freelance wrote:I'm taking an internet college correspondence course in kick@$$.
Martel le Hardi
black for the darkness of the path
red for a fiery passion
white for the blinding illumination
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Ursus, verily thou rocketh.
I find many of those who claim to choose being competitive over appearance, use that idea as justification for why they don't have a better appearance. Not all, but many.
I have seen too many pure sport kits that are completely hidden to believe that you have to choose between the two.
Look at Animal for instance. He is one who would stand first in line to choose effective over appearance. Yet, he still took the time to improve his look and take on a more medieval appearance. Did he make the choice? I have never fought him, but his attitude towards the pretty poser tells me he does both.
I see the argument as not between appearance and competitive. I see it as a compromise between winning, mental image, and sacrifice. I didn't join the sca to win it. I joined because I wanted to be a knight. (not a KSCA, the little kid when I grow up sort of knight) I want to be able to climb into a time machine and have the guys on the other side not know I am an alien. I don't want to sacrifice that idea to win. It would defeat the whole point of why I do this. Still keep in mind, the idea of being a knight means I have to be able to kick some butt, so prowess is important.
Others mental image of what they want to be is not the same as mine. So what?
Dropping some armor would make me better? A better what? How do you know what I am trying to achieve?
(Edit) UMMM yeah, now that I have reread I see you asked about period, not appearance. I understand the difference, but a lot of what I said still stands in that light as well.
Last edited by Hedinn on Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:03 pm, edited 5 times in total.
I would say its hard not to agree that some period kits do make "winning" more difficult. How much so is hugely subjective, but someone wearing a full, complete, 14th century kit, mail and all, is going to be far more burdened by that extra mass than one wearing plastic and titanium, ceteris paribus. But people who fight in really nice period harnesses know this, and accept it fully. They learn other techniques to control fights than sheer speed or the latest trick shots, and use their equipments "disadvantages" to their advantage. An example of this is full faced helmets... if you wear a properly made one, you can see remarkably well. When people think you cant see they like to try lots of low wraps and rising snaps. When you know this and see it coming, it gives you a huge advantage in that fight even though you "cant see."
Ultimately its a different approach to the game, and i feel both sides of it feel like "winners." As has been suggested above, everyone has a different opinion of what victory is. For some it is winning every fight, for others its having strangers give you thumbs up, or walk all the way across the war field to compliment you on your Armor.
Just my 2 cents,
Cheers!
Milan
Alesz Milayek z Opatova
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges
I can see both sides but for me.... Well if I could do a period harness with the SCA legal bits there then I would. That is my dream, I wanna be out there with Lamellar, Chain, Spangenhelm & aventail, Almond kite shield, Etc. The whole nine like some in east europe do.
I wanna look so friggin cool that I FEEL good just walking around, thus the new Windrose hat I got.
Duke James Grayhelm told me that the kit I would like to do was meant for horsemen and gives some disadvantage to being on foot (as well as being weighty), and that this is true for many harness types. He said this while wearing his project kit that he's making for himself and looks astounding, and is also not the best foot combat kit (but still shows his 20+ yrs of armouring skill).
Like others have said, its what makes you feel good on the field. If you feel good, then I feel good about you being on the field. So long as you get out there, no matter kit or style, your doing good.
Tourney Wise: I would take period style over not. Then again, I can use kite and mace with my lamellar and be period.
-Ivan
Who looks up to Viscount Sir Dymitry Shelomin for his example of Rus princedom.
When the World shout's "Give Up!", Hope whispers "Try one more time".
"If you're a guy full of sh** without the gold medal...when you get the gold medal, you're still a guy full of sh**"- Didier Berthod, First Ascent
i go for both. fighting does not simply come down to the "inherant" advantages or dis advantages of each fighter, we are not equations, and our shots and dodges are not numbers. So i go for a period look and weapon types and know that i shouldnt expect people to call lite thrusts because most period swords werent much for stabbing, excepting gladius etc.
and if someone whaps me with the side of an axe i will call it because at the end of the day an axe is a hammer with a point, if i get hit by the flat it is STILL a HAMMER.
honor is period so i go with period, but the whole game is a contest, everyones goal should be to make period as competitive as possible.
you can look period and still be competitive if you are a padboy. if you are wearing plate or chain the weight factor slows you down considerably.
the difference in someone wearing 20lbs versus 50lbs+ is tremendous speed wise.
I wear full Ti plate(45lbs) and feel it takes away 10 to 15 percent of my true fighting skill to wear it.
as much as I have tried to "sport it out" it still is encumbersome and can limit my movement at times.
sirmrks
mostly retired but still producing as a hobby.
am tired of making Titanium and 301 SS finger gauntlets
but still offer DIY shaped 301SS fingertip kits for $60 shipped.
usually can ship next day.
Many folks out there are in used armor. Even when purchased new, it is very, very difficult to find armor that fits you perfectly. Off the rack stuff rarely fits perfectly, and even custom fabbed stuff needs quite a bit of fiddling to get exactly right. Even if you are willing to spend a lot of time, really getting the fit right requires quite a bit of expertise and some specialized tools.
And if your armor doesn't fit correctly, you will have a hard time fighting.
The difference is that most sports pads are designed to be really forgiving of less than perfect fit. Plastic is flexible, there is lots of velcro and elastic, and foam is the primary padding material.
Armor, however, is made of pretty much inflexible materials, and the strapping is pretty much always leather. The leather is held on with buckles, so you don't have the infinite adjustability that a velcro hold down has.
Pads are more forgiving of poor fit than armor.
But, if your armor fits right, and you spend a little time getting used to the weight, fighting in armor is not counter competitive.
There's a mental aspect to this question as well. If you have the desire to look period and do this will usually play into your fighting and lift it, looking 'wrong' will grate and cause you to do less well.
Another aspect is the transition phase from typical SCA generic to period. Those people who are competative in a period rig have taken time to get used to it, those who try it and make a snap judgement tend to tell anyone who will liisten that period style equates to non competative.
perhaps in my original post I should have expresses ‘weapon’s form’ but when you bring up the option of ‘sport armor’ I see a point there as well.
The original question came from some (several) discussion on period correct fighting and its ‘usefulness’ in the SCA I’ll use myself as an example:
1st Century Iceni (Briton)
the weapons were often shorter (71-78cm overall) smaller shields and pears were very common in line combat (what little line combat there was) I was told (often) that fighting with a short spear and target shield, while it might look cool, would never be competitive in any way. Just as my ‘short’ sword ‘hinders’ my chances in tourneys as ‘everyone’ has the reach on me.
I’ve also heard in these discussion that the reason some have 2 faceplates for their helms, one barred, and one closed, is so they can do the ‘period thing’ to look good but change up to the grill to be competitive.
I believe that a kit can both be competitive and period… given that the fighter gains the skills to work within the advantages/disadvantages his/her chosen period may have.
What my post was looking for (and better wording might have brought this off better) was would /should a fighter buck the ‘trend’ go with their period correct styles and armor knowing full well that doing do may disadvantage them in some fights, or just go with the flow and use the open face helm, lengthen the weapon and leave the ‘exotic’ styles for demos only.
Squire to Sir Diglach mac Cein
"Eliminating Generi-celts from the Midrealm, one at a time. By Education or Force." -Sir Diglach mac Cein
"I'm not trying to be a hero! I'm fighting the dragon!" -Sir William the Knight
Brandr wrote:To keep from derailing this other thread Period vs. Competitive I started a separate thread.
In the referenced thread, there was a poll that asked the following:
Æiric Ørvender wrote:Given the choice would you choose to enter a list or melee using the period correct weapons of your persona or would you rather choose weapons that although not correct for your persona/time period would place you on a more even footing competitively?
The underlying implication here is that a period kit cannot be competitive. Do you believe this to be the case? Why do you think this?
I am interested in your thoughts on this. Please post them.
<edited>
Aeiric's question relates to using the period weapons for your persona, while your question, Brandr, expands it tremendously.
Plenty of people, whether wearing pure sport armour made a slight and minimal as possible or wearing a decent replica of cap a pied complain about how their armour interferes, slows them down, etc. For the most part these people are finding their excuses. Recognize their cries for what they are.
Most people who are competitive are not only competitive about the sport - but also about the way they look doing it. Not universal, but it's there - being of a competitive bent is connected to pride and ego - you don't generally want people to be saying "Wow ! you kick but even though you look like crap" nor do you want to hear "You look great but you fight like crap".
Your harness, if it is made well and fits you properly, will always be the least important aspect of your prowess on the field. Conditioning, training, practice, attitude, talent, experience all have more impact. Ill-fitting armour can end a fighter's career before it gets started, but for now let's keep this to a discussion of apples to apples - properly fitted gear, whether modern sport design or historically accurate.
But - weapons choices ? Huge impact on "prowess" on the SCA field. Remember that weapons systems evolve based on their success in their environment. Combinations that were used historically with success can be largely non-viable in the SCA game. Shield and spear ? Pretty hard to work well. Two handed spear ? Rough to work one-on-one against sword and shield. Two handed slashing spear ? Now for SCA it's a polearm and a very viable weapon, even in singles against sword and shield.
If you make a choice to use weapons forms that are appropriate to your persona even though they involve handicaps in the context of the SCA game, it's a choice you are free to make. Some people will fault you for it, but most will respect your choice. Become successful with them and you'll get a great deal of respect. Whatever you do, don't explain away your losses as due to your choice of historic weapons against opponents who just go with SCA sport styles. That just makes you whiny
Fight in what you want, with what you want. Have fun doing it. Don't use the equipment as an excuse for a lack of on the field victories. To these old eyes, that's what winning looks like.
should a fighter buck the ‘trend’ go with their period correct styles and armor knowing full well that doing do may disadvantage them in some fights
For me you aim for the right kit for your period in terms of type of weapons and armour. If there's something you dislike then do a period that doesn't have it.
The weapon size question I find harder for several reasons. do we really know why were the weapons of a given period the size they were? Do we have a big enough sample group of weapons to really make valid conculsions from? Although it's hard to see what we can do if the answer is no. The weapons may have been constrained by technology and materials but could they have been sized to fit their wielders?
or just go with the flow and use the open face helm, lengthen the weapon and leave the ‘exotic’ styles for demos only.
If you do that it's unlikely that you will ever learn how to do justice to your armour and weapons. It's also an open invitation to over extending joints as you miss by inches and hit nothing at all.
One of the challenges I see with a period kit is increased maintenance time - which cuts into training time unless you make other sacrifices in your life.
If I used a wooden shield, as would be correct, I would dramatically reduce the life of my shield before needing a new one.
I now have a stainless riveted hauberk to cut down on maintenance I expect would come from fighting 2-3 three times a week in a mild one.
I already begrudge my mild helmet and wish it was stainless, because cleaning it eats into my available hobby time. Love my wool tunic, hate how my armour and other people's weapons eat it up.
A perfectly period kit takes more time and effort, which is the real challenge, not necessarily how they perform on the field.
Nissan Maxima wrote: I make a choice to not throw back edge sword shots, because they clash with my outfit.
I sallute you, Nissan, for this. I find you to be in a minority that should be celebrated!
I can't count the time I've seen "Katana's", ie swords with tsubas, marked with two cutting edges etc.
Connor+
Connor +
DEUS VULT!
William of Stonebridge wrote:
Sarah Jessica Parker is the ugliest man I have ever seen.
I fight with a partly "period" harness in SCA; plastic corazzina, but 16ga+ steel arms and legs, and a klappvisor bascinet. As a fairly new person to SCA fighting, I realize that my equipment choices will make it harder for me to get good quickly, however, my foam fighting experience, and my general level of athletic experience, have acted somewhat to counteract that. I am working on a period-accurate harness (from about 1340-50) that will, I hope, be both more accurate and less restrictive than my current set up due to the lack of plate cuisses and vambraces, and the use of thinner materials.
I'll chime in with my Dagorhir experience, since I think it's relevant:
In that game, no protective equipment of any kind is required, although armor (which must be made of heavy leather or metal, no plastic or anything) will grant some amount of protection against single-handed weapons. Since leather is allowed, as you might expect the vast majority of armor out there is relatively hastily-assembled, unhardened, lightweight leather armor that often looks like ass and doesn't resemble real armor. I, however, am putting together a new kit which will be the same as my SCA kit--riveted mail, gamboised cuisses, coat of plates, steel schynbalds and vambraces etc--and which will, therefore, weigh about 50 pounds. I also wear my klappvisor bascinet to fight in, despite the fact that helmets are not required and, as attacking from behind is legal, seriously impeding my peripheral vision and exposing myself to backhacking that I would otherwise be able to notice easily.
So far (and I have only been using this kit for a few months) I have not noticed an appreciable decrease in my battlefield performance, HOWEVER, I have to take two things into account, namely 1.) I already had a lot of experience and a high degree of skill, relative to most other fighters, and 2.) I have to work harder now to get the same number of kills I was getting before, since I am lugging around 50 pounds of gear, can't see or breathe as well, and have lost some flexibility. But to me, it is worth it, because looking good is totally awesome and intimidating to other fighters.
In summary, I think that "winning" is a very subjective term, because for many people (like Leo Medii) the ultimate victory is to look and act and fight like a real warrior out of history, regardless of what impact it has on one's pretend fighting. For other people, winning is defined much more rigidly, to mean achieving success as defined by the rules of the game. Personally, I am somewhere in the middle (and unlike SCA, I also have the option of taking all or almost all my armor off when I feel like doing the latter more than the former) and I try to respect both viewpoints. But in general, I would like to reject the notion of a single kind of "winning" in organizations that are all about re-creation of a fantasy/historical sense of chivalry or honor or (in the case of Dagorhir) epic heroism. If I really wanted to be a period-accurate knight in SCA combat, of course, I would backstab everyone who wasn't bearing heraldry and set fire to their houses, which would be much more "competitive" in some sense, but is not really the point.
Alessandro da Viterbo
Sir Magnus
A limerick: Muse, sing of that wrath Achillean/So much grief did it cause those Achaeans!/Heroes' souls did it it throw/Down to Hades below/While their flesh was by dogs and birds eaten.
Nine months ago I started using liquid lanolin as a preventative measure on my springsteel harness. I have had no corrosion problems since.
Each piece of kit has its own cotton drill bag, (Flannel or wool might be better) and after practice the insides get wiped out with a towel to get the condensation/sweat off, then a couple of squirts of lanolin on the outside. over time the bags get impregnated with lanolin too.
The WORST thing a person wearing period armor can do is publiclly complain (or even state) about how it limits you compared to "sport" fighters. There is no way that it doesn't come across as whining - whether or not is if fact.
And new people who hear it not only hear you complain (and who wants to emulate a whiner?) but you are giving them reasons to go with the sports armor!
.
McCein Leatherworks and Sutlery - Used / refurbished armor, leatherworks, and accessories -
[img]http://img.snlarc.jt.org/caps/impressions/BiCr-Fernando%20Lamas.jpg[/img]
It is better to look good than to feel good, dahling.
And you look mahvelous.
If you were a poor Indian with no weapons, and a bunch of conquistadors came up to you and asked where the gold was, I don't think it would be a good idea to say, "I swallowed it. So sue me."
You buy the bone when you buy the meat - a real harness is heavier than sca sport suits, it's also infinetly cooler, if that doesn't give you an edge you're doing it wrong.
One of the high points of a bad pennsic was dragging it back from a battle, passing a youth combat area, and having a kid (in a gambeson and hockey gear) run over to say "You look soo cool, please be around when I'm ready to squire to someone"
My gear weighed about fourty pounds less all the way back to camp.
Do what you love with your heart, and you'll do it well.
The WORST thing a person wearing period armor can do is publiclly complain (or even state) about how it limits you compared to "sport" fighters. There is no way that it doesn't come across as whining - whether or not is if fact.
And new people who hear it not only hear you complain (and who wants to emulate a whiner?) but you are giving them reasons to go with the sports armor!
.
Bears repeating!
Winterfell wrote:What shape are your feet? You are not a Velicoraptor are you? It is so hard to tell on the Internet these days.
So far the way I have handled not being competitive with a specific weapon is to practice until I am.
I'm still not sure I quite get it. I mean... Vikings used swords, spears and axes. Why would I choose to face an opponent who bears a sword and heater with a 9' spear, given that I have an equally persona usable sword/round shield combo?
Ok... sure... if they start allowing Carthaginian War Elephants into the lists, I'll crossover and start using non-persona weapons again, but until then, I see no disadvantage to using my persona accurate weapons in either list or war .
I freely admit ymmv...
Ld. Eirikr inn vandraedi
"Now, go fight." - Sir Madoc's command upon taking his first squire
I wear about 45 lbs. According to my historical sources, that's about what my full rig ought to weigh.
Slow me down? I can't run quite as fast. My hand speed isn't any slower -- the sword slows down my hand more than the armour (meaning I can punch faster out of armour, but can't really swing a weapon any faster).
I mean, really, I don't move more than a step or two once I'm engaging the opponent, anyway.
Guy Dawkins
Barony of Ayreton
Kingdom of the Middle
This whole mad slide into hell started when we let California have it's own pizza.
Honor virtutis praemium
_______________________
mka: David Valenta
My attitude on fighting in a period style rather than a 'competitive' style came pretty much from a conversation I had with Wulf the mighty. H eas explaining to me the difference between the techniques used with an O-dachi as opposed to a Katana. He said with rattan, he knew I was strong enough to swing a 6 foot O-dachi like it was a katana, and gain an advantage with that, but if I were to limit myself to the characteristics of an actual O-dachi and excel ANYWAY... I was really onto something and touching the past. I took that to heart and from that one thing took ten thousand things, so to speak.
Animal Weretiger wrote:My attitude on fighting in a period style rather than a 'competitive' style came pretty much from a conversation I had with Wulf the mighty. H eas explaining to me the difference between the techniques used with an O-dachi as opposed to a Katana. He said with rattan, he knew I was strong enough to swing a 6 foot O-dachi like it was a katana, and gain an advantage with that, but if I were to limit myself to the characteristics of an actual O-dachi and excel ANYWAY... I was really onto something and touching the past. I took that to heart and from that one thing took ten thousand things, so to speak.
I sent a heavy curved piece of rattan to Daijmyo Akira when there was a famine up his way he made a katana that was longer and heavier than he normally used and when he had lighter rattan made a new one, and passed the long heavy katana to his squire (now Sir Koga Yoshitsune)
Ogami warned him that he would be hitting a lot harder so be aware of impact, Yoshitsune swung through someone else's block , dropped them, and came off the field exclaiming "this is neat, it doesn't matter if they make the block"
Something I also enjoy about having a more authentic kit is the ritual of puttin it on.
Starting at the feet and working my way as was done, putting on the layers of protection etc puts me in a medieval mindset.
I have no idea if the medieval knight valued this "ritual" the way I do but for me its important.
Its like the feeling of closing the visor, it has a strong mental impact on me that I do not get when putting on a modern piece of sports equipment.
To be in my pavillion preparring myself for combat helps put me in a certain state of mind,for me its an important part of the process.
I love getting suited up by my wife before fighter practice, and undressed by her after. It's a ritual that we've developed over the years. Because my harness is not optimized for solo donning, I get dressed up before fighter practice, and then drive there in harness (that ought to tell you how encumbering it is--which is to say not), which also has the benefit of allowing me to take the field first and make the most of the limited time on the field.
My harness does not restrict me. It is awesome.
John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
He who does not give what he has will not get what he wants.
