unbelted champions

eltweedthewake · Post by **eltweedthewake** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:03 pm

If the unbelted champions are to be made up of the best fighters in the kingdom shouldn't they be the unbelted fighters who have earned the kingdom level fighting award in their kingdom?

Ian Mac D · Post by **Ian Mac D** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:08 pm

I know in the East many who make the team are, but it isn't a requirement.

freiman the minstrel · Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:21 pm

I don't know very much about the Unbelted Champions battle at Pennsic, but I have been doing Pennsic every year since 23, so I can tell you two things.

First, Unbelted Champions at Pennsic is the generally said to have the highest calibration in the SCA. I would consider very carefully before agreeing to fight it.

Second, spots (picks) in the unbelted Champions battle are sometimes exchanged, or passed from one group to another. I am assuming this is on a kingdom level. ie. If the east wants Calontir to fight east this war, they have to give so many unbelted champions slots to Calontiri.

That is everything I know about Pennsic Unbelted Champions.

f

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:23 pm

I think you are confusing too battles.

The Unbelted Champions War point is for fighters from the Mid and East ONLY.

The Allied Champions is the one with spots given to the various kingdoms and allies.

freiman the minstrel wrote:I don't know very much about the Unbelted Champions battle at Pennsic, but I have been doing Pennsic every year since 23, so I can tell you two things.

First, Unbelted Champions at Pennsic is the generally said to have the highest calibration in the SCA. I would consider very carefully before agreeing to fight it.

Second, spots (picks) in the unbelted Champions battle are sometimes exchanged, or passed from one group to another. I am assuming this is on a kingdom level. ie. If the east wants Calontir to fight east this war, they have to give so many unbelted champions slots to Calontiri.

That is everything I know about Pennsic Unbelted Champions.

f

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:32 pm

eltweedthewake wrote:If the unbelted champions are to be made up of the best fighters in the kingdom shouldn't they be the unbelted fighters who have earned the kingdom level fighting award in their kingdom?

Or perhaps they should be the fighters who appear to be fighting at the highest level in melee combat during the season leading up to the event ?

There are great tournament fighters who are not very good in melee.
There are fighters who have not (yet) received recognition who are fighting easily at the level to be recognized.

There isn't any simple formula for picking those who should be in such a champions group. Factor in that for some kingdoms, like the East, the number of Champion slots available is completely dwarfed by the number of fighters holding our kingdom level fighting award.

Efforts are made to pick people who are performing well, but there are always matters of visibility and the like that come into play.

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:33 pm

I was on the unbelted team in the East kingdom for a few years and don't have an O.T.C. I worked hard to earn my spot each time.

Saburou · Post by **Saburou** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:41 pm

Speaking from very limited (one year on the Eastern team) experience with the Unbelted Champions battle, I would stress that it is a melee competition, and many - if not most - kingdom level fighting awards are for singles or tourney combat. Many Eastern Unbelted Champions have been COTCs, possessing great skill in all environments, but a surprisingly large number of Champions are not COTCs, and many COTCs do not make the team.

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:55 pm

I had the honor of making the Eastern Unbelts last Pennsic. I was out in March fighting as hard as I can, pushing myself to more practices and ultimately it paid off with a spot on the team.
I am still considered a "novice" until the end of next month.
As long as you're doing the right things you should be on the team.
I feel as if whether you're a tournament fighter or melee fighter plays little into it, same for COTC.
It's how quick you can put someone down- plain and simple.
That is what is going to matter when it all goes down at Pennsic.

Frieman mentioned "highest" calibration and I'd have to disagree.
We spend each practice talking about CLEAN engagements and we've been told by HRM/HRM the importance is on fair play and not WINNING at all costs.
Last year's battle I felt was quite clean and blows struck were accepted and I was certainly given a shot that was undeniably good.

I look forward to working this spring as I did last and hopefully I will be back on the team again for this upcoming war.

freiman the minstrel · Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:01 pm

I was apparently quite wrong about that.

thanks for clearing that up.

f

maxntropy · Post by **maxntropy** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:41 pm

I have had the great good fortune to be a part of the Eastern Unbelted Champions Team for a good number of years (starting way back around Pennsic 14 or 15, and having even been it's Captain), having been part of teams from different Kingdoms in the Unbelted Champions Tournament, and having been a part of the Allied Champions Battle.

While I personally am a Companion of the Order of the Tygers Combattant, there is absolutely no direct relationship between the East Kingdom Unbelted Champions team and any East Kingdom awards. It truly does not significantly help you got onto the team if you have a fighting award, nor does having been on the team significantly help you get a fighting award. Naturally, neither hurts... but such are indirect relationships. The OTC is given for excellence in one weapons form or for surpassing competence in several weapons forms. That is what we discuss regarding candidates. Membership on the Unbelted Team (at least when I was involved) was given for recent prowess at arms -- particularly in regards to melee combat (and, depending on the year, as part of small unit), and involvement and success in Unbelted Team practices. In years past, there have been overall team selection processes or particular slots that might have been given or shifted by their Majesties for whatever purposes they deemed appropriate -- but that is right and just, as it is *their* Unbelted Champions Team to select and do with as they see fit (we are, after all, a Monarchy). In recent years, however, in my humble opinion, the teams have been selected by participation levels and success during participation.

And don't forget, there are all kinds've different fighting awards in different Kingdoms. There are a number of Kingdoms that give out melee fighting awards (often to units) -- I am personally familiar with three of those Kingdoms (since I've been in units who have won those awards), but I believe there are two others. I also know that the Caidan Army usedta give out an Award for melee Leadership (the Captain General's Award for Leadership). So when you ask if members of the Unbelted Team should be those who have been recognized with Kingdom fighting awards... are you talking about the awards given for melee or for individual combat? I don't think anyone ever asks about who on the Eastern Unbelted Team have been members of units who have won the Blue Tyger Legion.

The two sides work diligently throughout the year on their competitiveness for the Unbelted Champions Battle. As such, that battle is inherently one of the toughest we have amongst some of the hungriest fighters we've got. In years past, there was little communication between the teams, and poor knowledge of each other. As a result, misunderstandings and assumptions were able to grow rampant (it is easy to think ill or blame somebody whom you don't know or know nothing about). Consequently, a few of us from both sides began to work together to fight these trends and we began a series of actions to change the cultures and context. We started constant ongoing dialogues between the groups, we held inter-team mixers at Pennsic, we developed a series of actions that were undertaken on both sides of the border, etc... The result, I believe, has been an improvement in the competitiveness of the battle and a very dramatic improvement in the dialogue and understanding between the teams and the Kingdoms regarding the teams and the calibration. I realize that there has historically been some issues concerning calibration both by some of the participants and particularly by some external observers of the battle. I believe, however, that these issues have been very largely dealt with over recent years amongst the participants. It is definitely a hard-hitting and fast-moving battle -- but I believe all involved are overall comfortable with each other at this point.

The Unbelted Champions Tournament, with its teams from a wide variety of Kingdoms, naturally has as wide a diversity across its teams as we do across our Kingdoms -- though as it generally reflects the top-tier from each Kingdom, the range of divergence is vastly smaller than in general across the Kingdoms. It's a blast, and I hope each of the Kingdoms continues to develop an Unbelted Team culture to improve the competitiveness of the teams so as to make it an increasingly difficult tournament.

And the Allied Champions Battle... what can one say about an hour-long fight against the top fighters from 15 different Kingdoms? It usedta be that the Unbelted Champions Battle was my favoritest, but since I once again moved out-of-Kingdom and have had a chance to really run in this one... I've begun to change my mind. The Allied Champions Battle scenario is a really phenomenal opportunity to demonstrate tactical knowledge and skills and test your mettle against truly outstanding opponents.

Above all, I would advise against making assumptions -- about awards and recognitions, and what you might need for the teams and what you might get from being on the teams; about calibration levels and issues and the feelings that might be exchanged between teams; etc... I commend you for asking questions so as to challenge your assumptions and get better informed, and hope you will continue to root-out such assumptions and ask others about them.

Naturally, these are simply my views and opinions, and others better informed might well prove me and *my* assumptions invalid.

In service,

Max Von Halstern

Josh K · Post by **Josh K** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:53 pm

The Middle Kingdom's Unbelt team culture is very similar to the East's and most of what's been said here applies to us as well. Personally, I'm not the Red Company or Gold Mace (our AoA and GoA awards) and earned an alternate spot at Pennsic 36, only 7 months after I authorized, and stood with my brothers on the field at Pennsic 37.

Stephen du Bois · Post by **Stephen du Bois** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:31 pm

BdeB wrote:

The Unbelted Champions War point is for fighters from the Mid and East ONLY.

In past years this has been true. Check the battle schedule for Friday East and Midrealm Unbelted Champions vs the World, and there one for the Belts to.

Stephen

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:52 pm

And the Allied Champions Battle... what can one say about an hour-long fight against the top fighters from 15 different Kingdoms? It usedta be that the Unbelted Champions Battle was my favoritest, but since I once again moved out-of-Kingdom and have had a chance to really run in this one... I've begun to change my mind. The Allied Champions Battle scenario is a really phenomenal opportunity to demonstrate tactical knowledge and skills and test your mettle against truly outstanding opponents.

Speaking of which, I think I am about done with the Atlantian Rugby Battle. It was cute the first couple times.

I preferred "Whack a mole" (3 banners in the middle of the field)

Wat of Sarum · Post by **Wat of Sarum** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:25 pm

I am with you Sig. I love contesting at bales or flags. Less so the rugby match.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:39 pm

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:
Speaking of which, I think I am about done with the Atlantian Rugby Battle. It was cute the first couple times.

I preferred "Whack a mole" (3 banners in the middle of the field)

While I admit that I do sorta miss the old fight over the hay bales battle, it had gotten really stale. The current version is only 3 years old. Soon it will be old hat and someone else will come up with more 'fun' for us.

But then again, I am in the minority that LOVED the Ressurrection Bridge Allied Champions Battle. That battle was BadAssed!

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:25 pm

BdeB wrote:While I admit that I do sorta miss the old fight over the hay bales battle, it had gotten really stale. The current version is only 3 years old. Soon it will be old hat and someone else will come up with more 'fun' for us.

But then again, I am in the minority that LOVED the Ressurrection Bridge Allied Champions Battle. That battle was BadAssed!

Wasn't that the one that was mixed in with Mid / East as well? I think I got chewed out for blowing off shots while column charging (that I didn't even notice, let alone think were light). But that was fun, too.

I wonder if we could some kind of broken field with bridge and other stuff...

Actually, we have a super fun war scenario we do out west for "Dutchess' War". It's multipolar. (Roughly 3-5 teams of 8-10 fighters depending). The terrain is set up more or less randomly, with little forts, bridges, whatever is around, a few res points (roughly 1 per team), and mobile victory points (usually banners, but also like a giant stuffed fish).

So the game becomes grab a bunch of stuff , move it to a defendable stop - form alliances. Great fun, but can get unbalanced if 1 team is good enough to grab most everythign, and hold a defensive position against 2+ teams.

Maybe 15 guys per kingdom?

Stephen du Bois · Post by **Stephen du Bois** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:51 am

I've done the Allied Champions Battle with the hale bale scenario once and the capture flag the last 2 years. I'm rather fond of the way its been done the last couple of years. Also, considering it scheduled for Sunday afternoon and likely to have had a limited number of command meetings I'm hoping we will keep it simple and use the scenario that has been used the last coupe of years. It may be something that the allied Royals will need to work out amongst Ourselves.

Stephen

Denewulf · Post by **Denewulf** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:55 pm

As one of the command staff for the Midrealm Unbelted Champions team I can offer this insight:

As my Eastern Brothers-in-Arms attested to above, we don't focus on the calibration issue, rather we focus on delivering clean, telling blows. I have fought in this battle 3 years and I have never received a blow that I would consider excessive. I knew I was hit and bested in honorable combat by an honorable opponent, but I was not hit any harder than I find myself being hit in any other combat situation.

In the Midrealm, all unbelted fighters are afforded the opportunity to stand as an Unbelted Champion. Our practices are open to all those who seek to serve the Crown and Populace. Our training schedule is fairly rigorous and practices are intense - train like you fight, fight like you train - and give unbelted fighters the opportunity to be recognized by the Crown as one of the team at Pennsic. There is no requirement to hold any fighting award. Many of the Midrealm's Unbelted Champions are members of the Orders of the Red Company (AoA) and Gold Mace (GoA), which in the Midrealm are awarded for fighting service, prowess, training, and battlefield leadership, but not everyone on the team has had either award.

Those of us who seek the mantle of champion do so out of love of melee and service to our Kingdom. It is an intense battle and the fighters on both sides are treated to some of the best melee combat that we can find.

This year looks to be as fun as ever, and I look forward to the opportunity to stand beside my Eastern unbelted brothers at Pennsic this year. I know that our kin from around the Known World will surely test the combined might of the Dragon and Tiger and most importantly, it will be FUN.

unbelted champions

unbelted champions

Re: unbelted champions