Pair of plates without covers (plates sans couvretures)?

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:10 pm

Did there exist plates without covers (coats/pair of plates without the coat) around 1330-1350? I have brought up this subject before in the COP-thread that disappeared in the Great Crash. I haven't dropped the subject yet and have a couple of references:

Claude Blair, in European Armour, 1958 mentions: "a French document of 1337 refers to 'Unes plates burnyes sans couvretures clauees sur cuir d'Engleterre'" (page 55, his reference is Guy II, which I haven't pursued).

Edge and Paddock, in A&A of the medieval knight, 1988, writes of pair of plates that: "Sometimes, instead of being riveted to the inside of a textile or leather garment, they were riveted to the outside, as seen in the Romance of Alexander" (page 73)

I believe that the Romance of Alexander picture (not attached in this post) they refer to is probably not an example of plates without cover as some scalloping (as in fabric) can be seen in the same colour in one of the silvery COPs. Furthermore the rivets are placed in the same places as in the other cops. If the plates overlaps upwards, the backing would not allow any significant movement.

There is another picture (attached) which I think would be a better illustration of a possible plates without cover (PWC!). I don't know where I got the picture but it looks like something from mid-14th century HRE. Here the rivets are placed almost in the middle of the plates, thereby allowing greater movement. Off course the silver-color is no proof, but I think it is the best potential illustration of a PWC I have seen.

So what do you say? Is the above citations outdated or still meaningful?

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:55 pm

I don't think the picture of the fellow in blue represents an uncovered coat of plates as several other tr figures in the manuscript wear identical amour in various colors ( ie I don't think the blue indicates metal). Somewhere I have an image of a more likely candidate for an inside out coat of plates represented on statuary. I will try to finds it and either poist it or e-mail it to you.

I'm not sure that a coat of plates and a pair of plates is the same thing but if they are the Inventory of the Duke of Gloucester circa 1390 mentions a gilt pair of plates which I think must be taken to mean the plates are not covered .

* PS the blue fellow is form the Bible of St Genevieve MS 777 Bibliotech National

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:06 pm

Thanks for the reference to ms 777 and the inventory! I'll see if I can find more pictures from that ms so I can see what you mean. It would be excellent if you could locate a picture of that statuary!

Yes, I should clarify that I use the terms 'pair of plates' and 'coat of plates' interchangeably. But that might not be correct..

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:08 pm

I'm an idiot at posting but if you e-mail me I will send you some othe rpics form MS777 as well as the statue pic

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:34 am

e-mail sent

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:39 am

Here are the pictures that Cet sent. The one from ms777 does indeed indicate normal COPs.

The statue however is interesting: Both guy's armours are similar. I believe I can even make out similar rivet placements on both (but the rivets on the guy to your right seems much more flattened). What is really interesting is that despite these similarities the plates on the guy with the bascinet are marked out in a totally different way. They really appear to stand out compared to the plates on the other guy.

When magnifying the picture it really seems like the plates are on the outside of the garment. In the bottom there is scalloping, which might indicate that the foundation garment becomes visible.

Not clear evidence off course, but still a good candidate for plates without cover!

mackenzie · Post by **mackenzie** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:48 pm

Three more possibles.

Look around edge of surcoat on Alberch and Leverick. Von Hurnheim may be a bit more controversial, but to me it looks like the plates are on the outsides of the fabric in the picture.

mackenzie

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:28 pm

Nice, I'll take a closer look at these!

Excellent angle of the von Hurnheim! It sure looks like the plates overlap downwards. And the rivets are placed up high on the plates. I therefore can't see how they could move any significant distance if they were held together with a cover on the outside. With the suspension on the inside the rivet placement would not constrict the plates' range of motion (except for the lame closest to the main chest-plate).

But, again this is a piece of art so no guarantees that it is a perfect representation of the real item.

(Edited to add the point in the paranthesis)

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:43 pm

Fellas,

I think youre reading more into those pictures first few images (the bottom two might be).

Those "lines: youre interpretting as plates are probably just the slight difference in height/shadow in the leather or fabric in between the covered plates. A well made COP looks like this.

Also, look at the color of exposed steel....its clearly a distinct blue tone.

The rivets are simply ...rivets.

The construction of an exposed COP vs. an interal COP is very different, in theory leaving the wearer less protected because the plates of an internal COP hug up against the body (they are tightly sandwiched between the body and the flush fitting textile or leather.

In an explosed cop, the plates are looser, leaving more access for weapons to be driven up through them.

Now, a fauld comes to mind in terms of it being reminiscent of an exposed COP, however the fauld also flares outward, somewhat away from the body. In terms of the lesser of two evils, a fauld also protects a less critical area than the upper body.

I dont doubt a few exposed COPs existed, but I dont feel that those first 2-3 images representan exposed COP construction

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:45 pm

Andrew - Thanks for the sandwich-argument! I think it really clarifies why regular COPs were more popular. (Before the use of sliding rivets in animes at least..)

Other than that, I am not a native English speaker so I might have been unclear in my previous posts. I would therefore like to clarify four points:

1. As you can see in my fourth post I have already been persuaded by Cet that the ms777 picture does not represent an exposed COP. I only added two more ms777 pictures (with the colorful COPs) since Cet couldn't resize and attach them himself.

2. In order to predict whether a depiction of a COP suggests that it is exposed or not I propose looking at two variables: The direction of overlap (does the hoops overlap upwards, like animes, or downwards, like lorica segmentatas?); and the placement of the rivets (higher, or lower part of the plates)

3. My hypotheses are.
i) Downward overlap with high rivet placement increases the likelihood that an exposed COP is depicted
ii) Upward overlap with lower rivet placement increases the likelihood that an exposed COP is depicted

4) This is under the assumptions that a wearer would want most of the plates to actually be able to move without tearing the fabric

/Daniel

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:51 am

Mackenzie - I had always figured that Albrecht had a scale armour. But now that you pointed it out: around the edges of the overgarment it does look more like bands of plates rather than scales. But off course, difficult to really determine.

As for the Leverick one: It's hard to see, but it might be something like the picture attached here. Namely, what looks like uncovered plates on top (at least to the sides) and regular COP arrangement further down (and possible in the middle up high).

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:21 pm

The misericorde carving in Lincoln Cathedral, "The Fall of Pride," showing a knight in a coat-of-plates from the back, is pretty clearly uncovered plates to my eye. I'm at work and don't have my files, but I'll try to post that one later if someone doesn't beat me to it. (Cet?

)It's also featured in Edge & Paddock.

Klaus

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:19 pm

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:55 pm

Danke schÃ¶n!

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:33 pm

Ah, that photo has a slightly different angle than the one in Edge and Paddock. It seens that the lower plates are approaching the shape of scales.

Anyone know the date of that sculpture? Edge and Paddock says late fourteenth century.

/Daniel

mackenzie · Post by **mackenzie** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:06 pm

Daniel S wrote:Mackenzie - I had always figured that Albrecht had a scale armour. But now that you pointed it out: around the edges of the overgarment it does look more like bands of plates rather than scales. But off course, difficult to really determine.

As for the Leverick one: It's hard to see, but it might be something like the picture attached here. Namely, what looks like uncovered plates on top (at least to the sides) and regular COP arrangement further down (and possible in the middle up high).

The combination of plates on top of backing and plates under fabric(cloth or leather) does look possible. As for scale versus COP with plates on top, if the plates are small enough we call them scale and if the plates are big enough we call them COP? : ) They appear to be different expressions of the same idea.

mackenzie

SyrRaim · Post by **SyrRaim** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:28 pm

Here is a photo of one of the other Strasbourg pieces showing the back.
Syr Raim

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:37 pm

Page 82 of AAOMK statue from lincoln cathedral late 14th has back plates like what you're looking for.

Baron Alcyoneus posted it but the pic in AAOMK is better quality and you can see more of the details. Including how it's strapped and suspended and the fact that the front is a one piece breastplate which we can assume is a globose.

I kinda wanna make one now.

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:09 am

Syr Raim - The plates does seem to overlap downwards, with a rivet placement that could make an uncovered COP more likely (according to the hypothesis I proposed earlier)

Matt - I'm trying to build an uncovered COP now. Not quite sure how I will create the closure as I want mine to fit into the time around 1345 (I'm making stuff from the strasbourg panel). I have been thinking of doing a side closure like the regular COPs from Kussnach. I'll upload a couple of sketches after work.

SyrRaim · Post by **SyrRaim** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:38 pm

[quote="Daniel S"]Syr Raim - The plates does seem to overlap downwards, with a rivet placement that could make an uncovered COP more likely (according to the hypothesis I proposed earlier)

Yeah, this is one of my favs, too! I especially like the shape of the bascinet and the gauntlet detail. Here's another from the same tomb!
Syr Raim

Daniel S · Post by **Daniel S** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:44 am

I haven't had time to do sketches of the options I consider for closing it up. But here is a (crappy) picture of the front of a piece I'm working on.

I haven't finished shaping the plates (particularly the two highest) or even drilling holes. Furthermore, I need to add at least one more plate to get a more correct lenght (this piece started as a Kussnach COP with five horizontal lames).

I'm not sure if I will drill the holes so that the rivets shows or are hidden. (Any ideas?) Instead of having a complete fabric or leather backing I'll probably just have leather straps as suspension. And perhaps scalloped leather sticking out below the bottom lame.

When I get back after Easter I hope to have some more progress done on this

/Daniel