COTT 2009

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:45 pm

If by the actual combat you mean yet another SCA melee, then I could see your point.

If they are allowed, can we at least limit the # on the field?

Bernhart von Bruck · Post by **Bernhart von Bruck** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:46 pm

Chello!

Murdock wrote:Yup, Leo's right. I have been slacking on my kit bad

Murdock, with you I think it's more along the lines of the "cobbler has no shoes."

Galleron · Post by **Galleron** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:24 am

Ceddie wrote:If by the actual combat you mean yet another SCA melee, then I could see your point.

If they are allowed, can we at least limit the # on the field?

If our goal is to be more like the real CotT, rather than more like our past Pennsic recreation s of it, an artificial limit on the number of spears is going in the wrong direction.

To get into the spirit of the combat, I encourage all of you to read some of the historical accounts, here:

http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/his ... eedsch.htm

and

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... hirty.html

On the other hand, I would certainly support an appearance requirement. If the captains want to limit us to legally useable spears with no more than a 2" diameter tip, I could see the logic of that.

Here's how I make mine:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... pears.html

Hedinn · Post by **Hedinn** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:51 am

I think what is meant is that in the sca, spears have a certain effect on the way melees are fought, which is not like how they were used historically.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:55 am

Within the scope of the SCA we have limitations on what we can do with weapons over 7.5ft. The original participants did not. I will grant you they had none of the restrictions we do but the removal of striking for effect from longer weapons totally changed what they are and how/why they are used.

If we are to allow as many SCA spears as can brought to the field what we will have is a little less than 30 on 30 with about 75% spears playing at a standard SCA line dual. A very well dressed but boring venue for the fiberglass fencers to play.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:03 am

If we are to allow as many SCA spears as can brought to the field what we will have is a little less than 30 on 30 with about 75% spears playing at a standard SCA line dual. A very well dressed but boring venue for the fiberglass fencers to play.

I don't think so- I think the altered targeting rules used in the 30 would make spears less effective than they are when using the standard SCA rule set. It may make the battle last a bit longer but one consistent complaint I've heard form the very first is that it doesn't last long enough.

I would say no 3" spear heads though - just don't look right.

Lord_Wolf · Post by **Lord_Wolf** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:31 pm

Galleron wrote:Here are the weapons mentioned in <a href="http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/his ... .HTM">this account</a> of the combat, with the number of times mentioned:
War-axe (hache): 2

What is a war-axe? Is this a battle axe? I would assume so. I believe that the pole axe that we are all fond of seeing in the 30, are actually more of a late 14th, 15th century style of weapon.

Knightly weapons of the early to mid 14th seem to me to be the following:

Lance
Long Sword
Arming Sword/Falchion
Dagger
Mace/Pick/Hammer/Maul
Axe

Not spears, unless they are supposed to be lances. And certainly not any form of polearm that is used as an agricultural implement, or any form of common soldiers weapon (Bill, Glaive, Guisarme, Partisan, etc...).

And while our current rules state that a one-hand weapon doesn't do any damage if swung, I feel that if I can beat you to the ground with it, or hit you hard and enough to force you to yield then they are still effective. This is especially true for the single handed mass weapons like the Axe/Mace/Hammer/Falchion.

Nigel, Duke of Arrochar · Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:41 pm

Greetings all.

I am sorry to say that Johannes has probably already gotten too deep into his Pennsic prep, or is in a truck headed to Slippery Rock as we speak, to be a part of this dialogue so I will go it alone. Johannes had posted somewhere in this thread, or to me privately or one of the other CotT related threads (sorry, can't remember which) that he felt that this should be considered a "poleaxe and dagger" engagement with single handed swords as back-ups. I will say that we are too close to Pennsic to alter that at this point. IMHO

HOWEVER, I will say that as we have done a second melee without ransoms on several years since the inception of the CotT at Pennsic, that we should do so again this year BUT we should allow spears in the second round. I am interested in playing with some of the other conventions that Galleron has offered over these past few years as well. See, some of us have been paying attention.

I would like to see Galleron's "cut lance" that he has made. I missed the Challenge at Vannes last year.

I will bring my 2 six foot spears and my 2 nine foot spears and we can hash out the details there for the second engagement.

Galleron, if I can bend your ear about your proposed conventions before the CotT I would love to. I will be attending the HCS Poleaxe Tournament on Saturday if you want to find me. For that matter, I camp in N31 just east of the big intersection and across the creek. If not, I will try and find you.

I leave you,

Nigel
Prince of Ealdormere

Galleron · Post by **Galleron** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:43 am

Lord_Wolf wrote:
Galleron wrote:Here are the weapons mentioned in <a href="http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/his ... .HTM">this account</a> of the combat, with the number of times mentioned:
War-axe (hache): 2
What is a war-axe? Is this a battle axe? I would assume so. I believe that the pole axe that we are all fond of seeing in the 30, are actually more of a late 14th, 15th century style of weapon.

Knightly weapons of the early to mid 14th seem to me to be the following:

Lance
Long Sword
Arming Sword/Falchion
Dagger
Mace/Pick/Hammer/Maul
Axe

Not spears, unless they are supposed to be lances. And certainly not any form of polearm that is used as an agricultural implement, or any form of common soldiers weapon (Bill, Glaive, Guisarme, Partisan, etc...).

And while our current rules state that a one-hand weapon doesn't do any damage if swung, I feel that if I can beat you to the ground with it, or hit you hard and enough to force you to yield then they are still effective. This is especially true for the single handed mass weapons like the Axe/Mace/Hammer/Falchion.

"War-axe" is how that translator translates hache. The French word is used both for pollaxes, shorter battle axes and ordinary civilian axes. Axes in 14th c. battlefield iconography do tend to be shorter than later pollaxes, although a two-handed haft seems typical.

Lance is used throughout the original poem. I wouldn't make much of a big functional distinction between spear and lance used on foot. Also, medieval French doesn't draw the same distinction that modern English does, and does use lance to describe spears used by ordinary infantry such as pavisers.

The fauchon mentioned several times in the poem sounds very similar in shape to an agricultural bill, although the two similar examples I've been able to find in 14th c. battle iconography show it without the long haft of an infantry bill.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:38 pm

Gentles,

I have need of a reliable courier to bear a token of my esteem to a participant in the Combat of the Thirty. Please PM me if you are a participant in the Combat of the Thirty and could do me this favor. It would involve me shipping a small parcel to you prior to your departure to Pennsic (I am in an intensive language course on the Army's dime and cannot attend), to give it to the intended recipient.

Best,

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:59 pm

PM sent

Galvyn Lockhart · Post by **Galvyn Lockhart** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:09 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:Gentles,

I have need of a reliable courier to bear a token of my esteem to a participant in the Combat of the Thirty. Please PM me if you are a participant in the Combat of the Thirty and could do me this favor. It would involve me shipping a small parcel to you prior to your departure to Pennsic (I am in an intensive language course on the Army's dime and cannot attend), to give it to the intended recipient.

Best,

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

pm sent.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:01 pm

I also can do so Jehan. I can order some more coins as well if that helps?

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:10 pm

I am always down for another coin order, I can couple up the package and give you a discount/added coins--drop me an order and I'll make you whole, Sir Kieran.

Or, I'll just send it to you tomorrow--that's what I'll do.

Best,

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:55 pm

Sending an order.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:30 pm

Thanks very much--very grateful.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:42 pm

From Missouri I say, let the second fight include some new things we have discussed, perhaps even shields. If we don't like it, it never happened.

Time to sleep. See everyone at the war.

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:36 pm

The French won for the first time at Pennsic...

g-

PS- it was AWESOME!

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:34 pm

Ummm . wait wasn't last year the first time the English had won at Pennsic with the French dominating prior? As a banner bearer, I watched the French take a policy that I'd not seen before that secured their win this year in which they denied ransomes in order to secure the release of thier comrades as the tide turned and deny the English victory.

Cellach_macChormach · Post by **Cellach_macChormach** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:57 pm

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:The French won for the first time at Pennsic...

g-

PS- it was AWESOME!

France has won the 30 every year but last year.

I will second that it was awesome. It was great to run with Alaric, Nigel, Gregoire and Nigel's squire (sorry his name slipped my mind).

Mahault · Post by **Mahault** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 pm

Prince Nigel's squire is Berend and he had a great time too!

white mountain armoury · Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:12 pm

It was wonderful, great people on both sides, tons of silk banners, fine kits, some interesting ransoms and crazy hard issue free fighting and camaraderie you can get no where else.
My first melee in my tiny visor with the 1/2 in sight was like a widescreen picture frame looking at alot of coolness
Bummer my USB cable is tucked away in my unpacked truck.

Token Bastard · Post by **Token Bastard** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:45 pm

white mountain armoury wrote:It was wonderful, great people on both sides, tons of silk banners, fine kits, some interesting ransoms and crazy hard issue free fighting and camaraderie you can get no where else.
My first melee in my tiny visor with the 1/2 in sight was like a widescreen picture frame looking at alot of coolness
Bummer my USB cable is tucked away in my unpacked truck.

Noooo! I must have photos! I must have something new to aspire to, so I can actually get off my ass and work on something!

-Ed

eldric.von.atzinger · Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:56 pm

This was the first time I have had the oppertunity to join in on this , and I can say without a doubt it will be something I will strive for each year. I had a blast. Hopefully the Hoenklinken harness will be compleate (hourglass gauntlets and sabatons). I really wish I had gotten the chance to draw the hand and half and do some half swording. Maybe next year.

white mountain armoury · Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:52 am

<img src="http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/ima ... george.jpg">

Here is a taste, ill dig up more as I can.

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:38 am

Magnus...WHo is the guy in front of you with the quarterd heraldry??? I love his guants and want to know some more info on them....

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:41 am

Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:Magnus...WHo is the guy in front of you with the quarterd heraldry??? I love his guants and want to know some more info on them....

Valarius.

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:51 am

Leo Medii wrote:
Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:Magnus...WHo is the guy in front of you with the quarterd heraldry??? I love his guants and want to know some more info on them....
Valarius.

Well, I guess that explains, with a single word why they look so bad ass....

WendallVonDerEisenstein · Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:32 am

Here is the video my lovely wife took for us.
She missed about the first 10 seconds as the lines closed together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GPktW2EM-c

I'll try and get pics up asap.

Wendall

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:05 pm

white mountain armoury wrote:<img src="http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/ima ... george.jpg">

Here is a taste, ill dig up more as I can.

Oh hellllllll yes. Completely inspiring.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:10 pm

audax · Post by **audax** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:25 pm

Fan-freakin'-tastic!

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:32 pm

Absolutely badass.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:57 pm

just when I was coming to terms with missing Pennsic this year.....

Keegan Ingrassia · Post by **Keegan Ingrassia** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:07 pm

Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:Magnus...WHo is the guy in front of you with the quarterd heraldry??? I love his guants and want to know some more info on them....

Isn't that the heraldry of the Black Prince? Or is it just incredibly similar?

COTT 2009

spears

video!!