What's the Deal with Combat Archery, ect?

[Iohn deMar]

Okay I'm sorta new to the SCA, I've known about it and I've been in and out for a few years now. I'm a realm administrator for Dagorhir, and I'd love to get into the SCA in a big way and I can see myself shifting to SCA in my later years. Now, before you bash me for being a "pansy boffer fighter", let me say that I am not a speed-bat-larper. I'm a huge supporter of heavy weapons and accurate kits. However a lot of customs in the SCA seem a bit archaic and not in a good way. I sometimes get the feeling that the organization is run by the elites of the royalty, and that those elites have a general idea of what they want the SCA to be and at times may limit the amount of personal freedom on and off the field. If I'm wrong, explain it to me.

I do have a few major problem with the SCA that I've never really understood, and it has kept me from staying interested enough to become actively involved. What do you guys hate so much about combat archery, and what is the big deal with only showing the SCA to be heavy melee combat? No one can deny the significance of the bow in period. It seems like anytime CA is mentioned you all cringe in disgust. Are you all really that prideful to work so hard against CA because you don't want to die from a stray arrow or a well-placed shot? I know there are those of you who are for CA or don't care, but the overwhelming impression I'm getting is that the SCA just wants to armor up and hit each other until you get tired and feel like taking a death.

I know this may be offensive to some, but prove me wrong if my observations are inaccurate. Explain to my why this is the case or not. I'd love to play SCA, but the way I see it there are too many issues internally for me to want to get deeply involved.

[Saritor]

We just went through this, didn't we? Seems like just earlier this week...

Actually, I hope no one will jump all over you for being a boffer fighter...you've actually asked honest questions, and tried to point out that you don't want to be offensive. That's a better start than some have made.

Some of the big problems with combat archery are these:

1. Contention regarding the effectiveness of bows.

This argument is really about the deadliness of the bow, which is really what most people want to argue when they say "effectiveness". One side contends what modern media tells us, which is that the bow was the deadliest weapon on the battlefield, and capable of killing armored combatants. The other side points out period sources and evidence suggesting that arrows were great for funneling/channeling/denying an area, but more out of fear of the random chance that they might die, rather than the certainty of death.

The period sources of men-at-arms in armor weathering and surviving storms of arrows mostly unscathed does not jive with the...

2. Nuclear arrows.

Combat arrows don't have to hit with the same force as a regular blow. If it hits you, it's good. Marshals and other fighters have tell people they got hit by an arrow, which means calling a shot for someone else, in some cases. (Which violates the rules of the list, but is made necessary to do so by the shot power.) Further, if the armor was effective against the bows of the time, a nick to the arm should hardly be a killing blow (though most people on that side of the argument are willing to accept an arrow to the face, except for safety considerations.)

3. Snipers.

Sniping with a bow did happen in period, but it was the exception rather than the rule. The way the SCA rules are set up, most combat archers work solo, hanging out behind the lines and picking off people in the shield wall. In period, they'd've been formed in to blocks and told to deny an area to the opposing army, or (if bows were in fact as deadly as the modern media presents) kill a whole LOT of folks on the charge, instead of one-two guys during engagements.

4. Behavior.

Too many stories about combat archers making rude gestures, comments or doing end-zone touchdowns dances after picking off dukes and knights.

5. Not viewed as chivalrous.

Archers hit you from wherever the hell the archer shot from, which is typically not in reach, or not even possibly in the direction you're looking. There is no chivalrous engagement (which is not to say that archers can't be chivalrous guys, but that shooting archery is, by some, not viewed as a chivalrous activity, in and of itself) or contest between the two opponents.

I don't think I missed anything, did I?

[Ingvarr]

Before BA posts the "aww, not this crap again" pic. Read some of the threads that are already here. There have been several in the last few months and at least one that's been active within the last week.

Code: Select all

The basics are
* are we fighting wars or taking part in grand melee?
    * If the second, archery isn't period
    * If the first, archery is period
        * but not in the way that CA does it
            * CA does not utilize archer units
            * CA does not use volley fire
            * Single wandering snipers, not so period
* How effective were arrows?
    * nuclear arrows are BS
* What are we portraying
    * we are all assumed to be nobles
    * archers are generally peasant levies
    * or are they?
* But why do they have to be dicks
    * Many, many examples of archers who show extremely bad sportsmanship.
        *Probably a minority but they stand out enough that it influences the definition

Opinions and sentiments range a lot on CA and CAers. Obviously the most vocal from both sides are those with the strongest feelings on the subject. That's not always a good thing.

For the most part, regardless of their feelings on CA, when they are on the field most people at least accept that they are there.


[edit]Saritor types faster and better.[/edit]

[Ludial]

that's the thing, it's not as easily, or effectively applicable in SCA combat. I came to realise that a horse archer(a kind of warrior that I almost worship ) is probably even less applicable to SCA combat than a foot CAer.
While I still consider chivalric principles to be a boring way to conduct a battle, I think I'll just have to find a bunch of low-trodding, "amoral" thugs like me so we'd have separate fights of our own, including a lot of CA and dirty tricks in melee. It will be definitely more fun

[raito]

However a lot of customs in the SCA seem a bit archaic and not in a good way. I sometimes get the feeling that the organization is run by the elites of the royalty, and that those elites have a general idea of what they want the SCA to be and at times may limit the amount of personal freedom on and off the field. If I'm wrong, explain it to me.

You are not wrong. However, your own group suffers from the same, as does every other group I've come in contact with. Even the non-combat groups (ever seen Kiwanis or Optimists politics? SCA is small-time.) I'm not sure what your point is. Every group has their own compromises in their fighting rules, and their own cultures.

And while some of Saritor's points are correct, on one he is not. I quote:

Arrows must hit according to the Universal Shot Standard as established
in the Society. Arrows must hit point-first, non-glancing and strike with
sufficient force to be noticed to count. The only person who can judge if
the arrow shot is good is one who was struck.

(taken from Northshield's rules, ebcause they came up first on the search)

While arrows may be nuclear, if you don't notice the blast, it doesn't count. Marshals and fighters no longer call arrow shots for others (other than for those times when someone askes,"Due, was that an arrow?")

And as for 'sniping', aimed archery may not be what people think of (mostly because they think of massed archery), but aimed fire was a large part of many non-western-european cultures. The Mongol and Hungarian horse archer, the early Samurai, etc. It's particularly interresting to nore that Samurai archery is almost by definition chivalrous.

And as far as internal issues, you're mostly free to ignore the politics and just fight. As long as the rules (even the unwritten ones) are followed, mostly everything's fine. Which is about par with other groups.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

I sometimes get the feeling that the organization is run by the elites of the royalty, and that those elites have a general idea of what they want the SCA to be and at times may limit the amount of personal freedom on and off the field. If I'm wrong, explain it to me.

Smells like... FEUDALISM!

Try it! You'll like it! (even Nissans' mercenary feudalism counts).

I know there are those of you who are for CA or don't care, but the overwhelming impression I'm getting is that the SCA just wants to armor up and hit each other until you get tired and feel like taking a death.

Well... what's wrong with that? Just replace "feel like taking a death" with
"feel they have been bested in combat"

In any club the size of the SCA there are jackasses - and they come in both shiney and fringy varieties. Just come out and have a good time. Learn the local customs and conventions and follow them. Follow the rules, be chivalrous and courteous on the field, and don't get torqued out of shape if a jackass gives you a hard time.

[Louis de Leon]

I sometimes get the feeling that the organization is run by the elites of the royalty, and that those elites have a general idea of what they want the SCA to be and at times may limit the amount of personal freedom on and off the field. If I'm wrong, explain it to me.

I'll explain it but you'll have to describe what you're talking about a bit more. I'd say you're right about the Royalty having a vision for what the SCA should be. But limiting personal freedom? I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean squiring/Knighthood? There are responsibilities that come with each and that does limit what you should and shouldn't do, but those are voluntary oaths. You could have a long and happy career in the SCA and never even touch a belt. Our man Nissan is a grand example.

What do you guys hate so much about combat archery, and what is the big deal with only showing the SCA to be heavy melee combat?

There was just a recent thread on combat archery. Use the search function and go have a look, most of the problems with it are detailed there. And summed up nicely in this thread, too. And the SCA is FAR from only heavy combat. Heavy gets the most press though, I'll give you that. But there are loads of ways to get involved in the SCA, have a blast, and never once put on armour.

No one can deny the significance of the bow in period. It seems like anytime CA is mentioned you all cringe in disgust.

We have a large collection of combat archery squeaky wheels here. But from what I've seen a large silent majority of the SCA doesn't give a wet slap about archery in the occasional melee. I don't. I love being shot at. It's exhilarating IMHO. Especially ballista fire arcing over a castle wall. Breathtaking.

the overwhelming impression I'm getting is that the SCA just wants to armor up and hit each other until you get tired and feel like taking a death.

Have to correct this. It's not "get tired and feel like taking a death". It's having a telling blow land on you. Are there rhinos who occasionally act the way you describe? Yes. But the problem tends to be self correcting. If you get a reputation as being a little numb, well...people will simply hit you harder. It's not something you want, and eventually most people get the idea.

I'd love to play SCA, but the way I see it there are too many issues internally for me to want to get deeply involved.

There are internal issues and politics with any large group of people. Can't be avoided. Can you think of examples in your larp? Bet you can. I know some Dagorhir folks and I know for a fact that there has been ugly politics there. I'm not going to drag out the dirty laundry of a group I don't belong to though. But I'm sure you know what I mean.

And BTW, nobody is going to call you a pansy boffer fighter or anything like that. We're all here because we love armour and combat. We've played "my larp is better than your larp" here before and it always ends up as an idiot's game. The fact that you take weapon in hand and seek combat makes you 99% like everyone here, and 99% different than everyone else. We're far more alike than different automatically.

[InsaneIrish]

I know this may be offensive to some, but prove me wrong if my observations are inaccurate. Explain to my why this is the case or not. I'd love to play SCA, but the way I see it there are too many issues internally for me to want to get deeply involved.

If you are asking us to convince you to come play with us then no thank you.

If you WANT to come play in the SCA then we will welcome you with open arms. But, I don't believe that we need to convince you that this is the game you need to be playing.

[Richard Blackmoore]

There are so many reasons why some people don't like combat archery or like it but don't think it fits well into the SCA combat and social construct, that listing them and explaining them takes many pages. I'd refer to to recent and archived posts for the details.

I admit to being one of those that hated CA with a passion and for years wanted it banned. I am still personally not a big fan of CA and frankly enjoy combat without it more than combat with it for the most part.

However in recent years, CA has made tremendous strides in safety of spectators and combattants, improved its relationship as a community with the heavy fighters in the SCA, taken pains to explain why it is justifiable from a historical perspective, changed many game play components to make it more acceptable from a fairness point of view and tried hard to change it from people that don't want to fight shooting fish in a barrel to being just another combat form a fighter may choose.

As a result, some of us have worked hard to understand CA users better, to try to understand their goals, aims and practices and find ways to meet them half way and keep the practice alive.

I no longer try to have it banned or restricted, I just try to work with the archers to see how and where it can be made safer, be historically justifiable in terms of our implementation and have it not unduly unbalance scenarios.

In the last year in particular, great strides have been made at a society level to upgrade and simplify the CA rules and reduce the types of ammunition used to a more controllable and readily understood and inspectable level. Spectator safety rules have been implemented. Marshals are being required to enforce them. Incidents resulting in injury or potential injury as the result of ammo failure whether due to design or builder incompetence/error or materials failure, are being promplty investigated and acted on.

In short things have changed a lot and as a result people are giving CA a chance instead of condemning it. But many of the changes that were being contemplated over a two year period of review, were implemented largely after a rather significant blowup over CA after some helm penetrations last year at multiple wars, some resulting in minor injuries. In some areas there are still raw feelings over the fighting and arguing that went on. However for the most part it produced a meeting of the minds where CA and HW types reached out to each other and started discussing issues and problems openly society wide, leading to a movement to eliminate misunderstandings and try to find common agreeable solutions to issues. So in the long run, I think CA will be much more acceptable society wide than it has been in the past.

Many archers have made many changes, many fighters have agreed to try to give CA another look and a second chance.

At the recent Gulf Wars, there was very little CA strife and the new safety measures seemed to reduce a lot of the friction, as we no longer had ammo landing in spectator areas, no archers were calling fighters dead, everybody seemed to be talking and having a good time instead of talking smack.

Understand also, that unlike heavy weapons fighting, CA was very different from one kingdom to another. And kingdom cultures vary. So for instance Calontir uses very safe ammo, only one type and the CA folks there are integrated into the Calontir army and culture. So CA there is far more accepted and liked there, where in other kingdoms it may be much less popular and far more contentious.

There are a great many archers in the SCA who are fine people trying hard to serve their kingdoms via CA and I'm glad to be able to count some of them as friends.

Richard Blackmoore
KSCA East

[Roland Brokentooth]

Would the situation be helped if we could make an arrow that hit hard enough to be felt, but was still safe?

Possible?

[Kilkenny]

Would the situation be helped if we could make an arrow that hit hard enough to be felt, but was still safe?

Possible?

Are you familiar with the incident a couple of years ago wherein a person had the occipital orbit broken by a combat arrow ?

My point being that we're already at a point where the arrows hit hard enough to be very much unsafe, yet can be difficult/impossible to recognize if they hit the right/wrong way on armour.

I've examined some "Fellwalker" bolts and consider the heads on them to be an obvious hazard on multiple levels - but they're legal

[Iohn deMar]

In boffer there are people who dislike archery probably as much as those in the SCA who dislike it. Perhaps it just seems strange to me, coming from a boffer perspective, to judge whether or not an arrow hit with sufficient force to not take the hit. I'm used to taking a hit from an arrow if the path of the projectile is altered due to my body.

I can understand where you're coming from on a historical point. We know without a doubt that archery was an extremely important instrument in battle. But evidence also suggests that a steel breastplate was designed to be angular or curved solely to deflect blows, including high velocity arrows. I guess what I don't understand is why there is a division between the two based solely on the arrows effectiveness. There will always be someone who debates the chivalrous value of archery. Frankly, there is none. But that doesn't mean it didn't play a huge role in mass combat.

What is the compromise between archers and heavies? Wouldn't it make sense to say a hit from an arrow is a hit from an arrow? Or does the armor required in the SCA prevent a fighter from determining if there was a hit at all? If your first authorization is with sword and board, is that not the best protection one can get from an arrow (a shield)? Maybe I don't understand it because I'm coming at it from a different angle, but even in my boffer experience its no easy task to take out a shield fighter with an arrow.

[Richard Blackmoore]

Gavin has the right of it, but you asked a good question.

Whether you like CA, are neutral or love it, it presents unique challenges to safe yet historically accurate implementation.

Typically solutions that are safe, make the ammo look and act in an ahistorical manner. And vice versa. Or the solutions require the fighters to change their armour in ways they are against (closed face helms, screening or pierced plate over eyes/face, etc.

Most of us would like arrows that look like arrows, fly like arrows and have great historical range allowing for useful volley fire as well as direct fire at individual targets at range, that hit solidly enough so that we know we are hit and feel bested instead of having to 'notice' it.

But when you make an arrow with great range, then we have trouble finding sites that can accommodate arrow fire and have enough room to keep spectators out of range. Also then we push the spectators so far back that some object that they can't see their friends or family fighting as they are too far away.

When you make an arrow that hits hard enough to a legal target area, you now have one that may hit too hard when it hits an illegal target area that may be unarmoured (foot, back of the knee, shin, calf, fingers).

Arrows that hit harder become more of a problem for marshals, water bearers and the like who typically only wear goggles. Omarad by the way is maintaining that we will not require additional marshal armour, but is considering writing into the rules something that makes it clear that marshalling in just goggles does not 'make you safe' and that additional levels of protection above society minimums are not a bad idea but are left up to individuals or individual kingdoms to choose.

Now me personally? I'd like arrows that hit harder and go farther, I'll just go to full plate. Most people don't want to do that or can't afford to. Frankly they should not have to.

But sites like Estrella and Gulf Wars (ravine battle) simply don't have room for long range arrows, the ones they already have frankly we have trouble keeping in bounds. Sir Jon on the CA list has posted that the bulk of the SCA sites for CA based wars would not even accommodate an 80 yard spectator safety barrier area (which is the current approximate range of the fellwalker bolts Gavin mentioned when fired from a 1000 inch pound combat archery crossbow). Much less arrows that can travel hundreds of yards.

Now many clamor for the old SCA days of wooden shafted arrows with bird blunts. Good range, good accuracy and they look like arrows because, well, they ARE real arrows. The problem is then you have possible broken wooden shaft issues and also you need to go with helm based protection for the eyes and face which the majority of fighters are against (not all, but most).

So we have this constant tug of war between wanting archery that works like real archery and hits like it, but wanting to be safe and not shoot spectators with long range hard hitting ammo.

I've never found a good solution for it other than larger sites. Which is part of the reason I've never been a big CA fan.

These problems have led to ammo that is now finally fairly safe (fellwalkers still worry me and we had incidents at Estrella that are being investigated with turned around bolts/arrows that caused at least one fighter to report possible broken ribs) but don't fly well and have mostly range in the 40 to 80 yards at most. Leading the kind of constant pop up, direct fire from cover or within the front lines that many fighters find annoying when it is the main archery being done, with almost zero volley fire due to range and inneffectiveness.

Plus the APD's required have made bow injury much harder and pushed more people into el cheapo low draw effort 600 to 1000 ip CA crossbows that can be used effectively with little training, skill, strength or endurance by newcomers, who can now kill someone that spent years getting decent at rattan, with ease. This isn't to say that skilled crossbowmen are not skilled and far more deadly, just that SCA CA leads people to be able to get easy kills quite often and bad scenario layout sometimes results in a 'shooting fish in a barrel' situation even now, unless everyone switches to shield only.

It still takes a lot of skill to shoot an SCA CA bow effectively, even with the low draw bows, as accuracy can be difficult with the APD's and tube ammo.

Anyway, yes I'd like ammo that hits harder, but it is very hard to do that and not create new problems. The fellwalkers already have plenty of power and are hard to use safely in a high ip crossbow without some deflections or misses ending up off the field and in the crowd areas.

Finding bigger sites will help, but I suspect that if anything, we'll see less 1000ip crossbows with fellwalkers over time other than in areas where they are already in heavy use.

Richard Woodenbridge, former KCAM East and active also in Acre and a strong CA proponent, is even concerned about the the 1000 ip high powered crossbows. I spoke to him about it at Mudthaw last week. And frankly Richard normally thinks I err far too much on the side of safety when CA is involved and he could well be right about that. Reasonable people can agree to disagree.

What is imporatant is that we all keep talking and trying to find consensus.

As far as John's point on calibration? Well yes. The standard changed in the Nov 2nd 2008 rules for acknowledgement of arrow blows. You no longer have to just notice the arrow. Now it has to land with some amount of force. But due to the dumbed down safety ammo and bows we use, it is still substantially lighter than what a real arrow would feel like. But at least now an arrow that barely tinks off of you will no longer count as a kill.

Part of the problem is that most of the fighters signed up for manly combat and we are used to being killed by a stout blow delivered with force. It is wholly unsatisfying to die to a 'tink' from a safety arrow that we never saw coming, from an archer firing from cover at a distance or sniping in the lines. We'll still take the shot, but we don't feel like we engaged in a combat where we were soundly defeated by a sturdy blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

Recognition is a problem. At Gulf Wars I died in the ravine battle I think 7 times to CA. Mostly to fire coming from in the lines, downhill from my sword side an an angle getting in behind my shield while screening for our spears, where our archers were not allowed to provide counterfire uphill as they might have hit spectators. The only firm blows from the arrows were ones that hit my face plate (possibly fellwalkers), even then the force was way, way under what a sword would deliver and I had to think for a moment about 'was that an arrow or a bump' on some blows.

I did get shot in the high forehead above the face once and the archer both times told me not to take it when I asked if it hit the face or the top of the helm. I could not tell, I just heard a noise and felt a very light impact and I was busy blocking blows from a heavy fighter in the line.

As usual, it was much easier to notice shots to my face plate/bar grille, as they are harder to misinterpret as bumps, you might see them coming and also you can ask the people next to you and the marshal if an arrow just hit your face; they are more likely to have noticed that than shots elsewhere on your body and be able to help.

On two of my death's to archery, they truly were good shots, where I was not presenting much of a target and they really had to squeeze the shot into a narrow opening. I congratulated the archers both times. I may not like what they do, it isn't for me, but I can respect them for working hard to do it well and acknowledge proficiency in the form.

One face shot was stupidity on my part, a marshal asked me a question about last night's drinking and Bytor's stripper pole, I got distracted, turned my head to answer and got shot in the face. Good shot archer, assist to the stripper.

[Louis de Leon]

In boffer there are people who dislike archery probably as much as those in the SCA who dislike it. Perhaps it just seems strange to me, coming from a boffer perspective, to judge whether or not an arrow hit with sufficient force to not take the hit. I'm used to taking a hit from an arrow if the path of the projectile is altered due to my body.

Aha! Your Dagorhir is showing. "Pad the weapons not the people." Right?

In SCA we pad the people and not the weapons. Changes things. Often times we can't feel the arrows. Don't see 'em, don't feel 'em. Sometimes you'll hear a "tink" that will be an arrow shot, but simply feels like the chap next to you bumped you with his shield or basket hilt.

[Iohn deMar]

How common is it for arrows/bolts to have safety fiberglass or carbonshafts? In a lot of boffers those shafts are used a lot because arrows get snapped a lot when launched into a large melee, and safety fiberglass and carbon can stand up to the punishment.

I'll assume that the safety concern for arrows/bolts are that they may pass through the grill in a helm or hit too hard. Would it be feasible to use carbon shafts with a rubber head foundation and then a layer or two of blue foam? I wouldn't know for sure but it would sound like they would fly pretty far and deliver a fairly solid hit without being painful. And do APDs really make arrows that awkward in flight?

[Magnus Ulfgarsson]

I think the thing I dislike the most about archery is just getting hit without the option to hit back. Even now that Combat Archers have to wear minimum requirements here for heavy (is that SCAwide?), I still have the chance of them just yielding if I run them down.

The best of them are pretty quick, they wear the minimums and race away to shoot at you, then race away again. If you ever get in range or they're out of arrows, they yield, how fun.

Also I hate getting hit lightly, I love getting whoomped, nothing reminds you of a great fight than when you got a giant bruise from a blow.

Do I want archery off the field? No. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Bob H]

Great post, Sir Richard, and thank you for your attitude toward combat archery. I think we can make it work well if we cooperate. There are combat activities in the SCA where archers do not belong - lists, some melees - but a war without archers is like sausages without mustard.

Do the crowbow bolts hit harder than those from a conventional bow? If that's the case, could we not allow 40# conventional bows to even up the force level? If we did would that make their range longer than the current crossbows, or about the same? I'm wondering if this is a problem we could easily fix. It might also be possible to allow 40-45# bows with Baldar/fiberglass shafts, with the provision that they be fletched with "half flu-flu" feathers ahead of the APD. Flu-flus fly nearly as fast as normally fletched arrows for the first 20 yards or so, then shed speed rapidly and fall to the ground. We'd need to experiment quite a bit to get the specs for the fletching right; they'd have to be feathers only (no plastic vanes), and need an exemption from the current 1/2" maximum fletch height (I think that feather fletching should get an exemption anyway).

Part of the trouble with blows from a combat arrow being light is that there is no way to get properly spined shafts under the current requirements, so arrows often are not flying straight. An improperly aligned arrow hits with only a fraction of the force of a properly balanced and spined shaft from the same bow.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Combat archery: the Gaza Strip of the SCA.

[Murdock]

Please search the site for earlier discussions on this topic

It was , as someone said, discussed in the past few days at length,

[Leo Medii]

Iohn deMar, if you lived closer I believe I could introduce you to an SCA that you would love.

Now, combat archery. Here is something interesting.
I used to be indifferent to it. It's WAR after all. Or is it? Now it's a grand melee with chivalrous combatants. No, it's not because we hire mercenaries to win battles. So it's a WAR. But we can't flank and take advantage of being behind units. No killing from behind, or unengaged.

GAH!!!!! What's a REAL war soldier company to do!!!!

So. I used to be indifferent. Then I started to despise it. As I took my fighting more and more seriously, I got ticked at the totally unreal way CA is used in the SCA. Got ticked that they wouldn't wage real war when pressed. I got ticked because I HAD TO by peer pressure of those who were in positions of authority, popularity and position.

Ya know what. Who gives a rip. I'm a tough bird, and I can walk. A lot. They only do CA in rez battles plenty of time to fight for an old guy like me. I became more and more indifferent the more laughable I started to find the engagement rules and other parts of SCA melee. It's a whole nother can of worms I won't open what I think of entire battle units ignoring entire flanking units because they know they can't "get them" from a positioned earned through good unit tactics movement and command. Another GAH!!! WAR. Let it be WAR! KAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHN!!!

Then I got a couple of ladies in my household. Awesome ladies. FIGHTING ladies. And these aren't cream puff ladies. They went the extra mile. They LOOK AWESOME in their 14th C gear. My wife fights in the COTT at our side and kicks ass. However, medically, one of the ladies can't do melee. She can do tourney, but no melee. Another of the ladies is simply too small and she can't "go where we go" as our 14th C mafia stormtrooper shock unit" at wars. We have tank armor, and our King's use us as such. She can't do that.

I love these ladies and they so want to "do their part" for the Middle Army. They want to help the kingdom win wars. So, what is a lord of a heavy company to do.

Combat Archery. That's right. Seige and Combat Archery.

However. I intend, as do they, to LEAD by example. Because of thier determination to fight for the Dragon Army and serve the Crown in war our 14th C Company had to adopt a whole section of rules on the levy of archers in our company ranks.
They won't stand with the fighters, or in the line and snipe. They will be a unit as a real archery core would have been. Shooting as they did into groups of opponents in attempts to move them, and to thin them and to hold areas. They are forbidden to be unarmored. They must wear the full equipment of our company and be armed to join the fray if they are attacked. They CAN NOT YIELD. They must fight if attacked (and they want to).
I came to realize there are people who do CA because of many reasons. Because of the respect I have for these two ladies, and how determined they were to serve thier kingdom in some capacity to fight for thier king just to be on the field doing something for the army I have changed my opinion of combat archery and siege.
There are still the chickens who want to use it as a paintball gun as they hide behind real warriors because they can't fight. And, there are people like these two ladies in my company that want to do archery because it gets them on the field, but they want to do it HISTORICALLY, and they have no problem standing and looking the person in the eye who bears down on them.

I know these ladies, and they will never utter the phrase "I yeild" in a battle. Other combat archers should follow thier example.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtMV44yoXZ0

[maxntropy]

I cannot help but be with Brother Groucho and Sir Vitus after so eloquent and compelling a case, and can't really see why anyone would want to say more on the subject.

[Ludial]

Leo, if that's the case, you'll be happy to fight me in a battle For when I run out of arrows, I'd simply pull my weapon out and fight! If you come to Pennsic this year and I make it there too, look for the 6'4" tyke with a star of Chaos on his chest
Cheers;
the mad dog

[Nissan Maxima]

Leo, if that's the case, you'll be happy to fight me in a battle For when I run out of arrows, I'd simply pull my weapon out and fight! If you come to Pennsic this year and I make it there too, look for the 6'4" tyke with a star of Chaos on his chest
Cheers;
the mad dog

Dude, You just described like 20 of my guys. Unless you wanna work for me, you may wanna think about a different logo.

[Graedwyn]

Leo, if that's the case, you'll be happy to fight me in a battle For when I run out of arrows, I'd simply pull my weapon out and fight! If you come to Pennsic this year and I make it there too, look for the 6'4" tyke with a star of Chaos on his chest
Cheers;
the mad dog

Oh boy, here we go again.
If I get to Pennsic... If I get authorized...
Brag after you do. Not before.
And I think Clovenshield would have something
to say about your "star of Chaos".

-Graedwyn

Edit:
Argh! could not type fast enough.
Nissan beat me to it.

[MJBlazek]

Leo, if that's the case, you'll be happy to fight me in a battle For when I run out of arrows, I'd simply pull my weapon out and fight! If you come to Pennsic this year and I make it there too, look for the 6'4" tyke with a star of Chaos on his chest
Cheers;
the mad dog

Dude, You just described like 20 of my guys. Unless you wanna work for me, you may wanna think about a different logo.

It's true....

I hear Nissan's not too terrible to work for. As long as you kill you get to sleep at night.
And they'll give you a spiff name, I think Batavus MoBat would fit


http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Batavus_I ... orporation

[Graedwyn]

Oh please no.
Those guys are my friends.
They get to brag about killing me.
(of course it is usually 10 to 1).

-Graedwyn

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Quick and Off-Topic-
You know, Nissan, I'm not sure your employers would be happy about you running around trying to put the bonk on particular individuals (me). Don't they give you assignments?
Just wondering-
V

[Nissan Maxima]

Due to a very high level of satisfaction in outcome, my employers generally allow me a certain leeway, to keep me happy.

Also, tactically, if we do get you, that means that Stahlgeist has taken some damage, although that is like having to fight the bear to get the honey, if you follow me. Those Kentucky boys can scrap.

You are some of my favorite prey. I tell you straight out that I have accepted offers because they put me across the field from you.

I like fighting you and I like fighting your squires. I have seen them literally jump in front of shots aimed at you. If it were easy or certain it would be worthless.

Everyone needs a hobby. I hurt myself laughing when you snuck up on me and smacked me with that big ass mace last Pennsic.

[Nissan Maxima]

Oh please no.
Those guys are my friends.
They get to brag about killing me.
(of course it is usually 10 to 1).

-Graedwyn

Another of my favorite prey animals, The wily welsh southpaw.

[Baron Alejandro]

Iohn deMar, if you lived closer I believe I could introduce you to an SCA that you would love.

Now, combat archery. Here is something interesting.
I used to be indifferent to it. It's WAR after all. Or is it? Now it's a grand melee with chivalrous combatants. No, it's not because we hire mercenaries to win battles. So it's a WAR. But we can't flank and take advantage of being behind units. No killing from behind, or unengaged.

GAH!!!!! What's a REAL war soldier company to do!!!!

So. I used to be indifferent. Then I started to despise it. As I took my fighting more and more seriously, I got ticked at the totally unreal way CA is used in the SCA. Got ticked that they wouldn't wage real war when pressed. I got ticked because I HAD TO by peer pressure of those who were in positions of authority, popularity and position.

Ya know what. Who gives a rip. I'm a tough bird, and I can walk. A lot. They only do CA in rez battles plenty of time to fight for an old guy like me. I became more and more indifferent the more laughable I started to find the engagement rules and other parts of SCA melee. It's a whole nother can of worms I won't open what I think of entire battle units ignoring entire flanking units because they know they can't "get them" from a positioned earned through good unit tactics movement and command. Another GAH!!! WAR. Let it be WAR! KAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHN!!!

Then I got a couple of ladies in my household. Awesome ladies. FIGHTING ladies. And these aren't cream puff ladies. They went the extra mile. They LOOK AWESOME in their 14th C gear. My wife fights in the COTT at our side and kicks ass. However, medically, one of the ladies can't do melee. She can do tourney, but no melee. Another of the ladies is simply too small and she can't "go where we go" as our 14th C mafia stormtrooper shock unit" at wars. We have tank armor, and our King's use us as such. She can't do that.

I love these ladies and they so want to "do their part" for the Middle Army. They want to help the kingdom win wars. So, what is a lord of a heavy company to do.

Combat Archery. That's right. Seige and Combat Archery.

However. I intend, as do they, to LEAD by example. Because of thier determination to fight for the Dragon Army and serve the Crown in war our 14th C Company had to adopt a whole section of rules on the levy of archers in our company ranks.
They won't stand with the fighters, or in the line and snipe. They will be a unit as a real archery core would have been. Shooting as they did into groups of opponents in attempts to move them, and to thin them and to hold areas. They are forbidden to be unarmored. They must wear the full equipment of our company and be armed to join the fray if they are attacked. They CAN NOT YIELD. They must fight if attacked (and they want to).
I came to realize there are people who do CA because of many reasons. Because of the respect I have for these two ladies, and how determined they were to serve thier kingdom in some capacity to fight for thier king just to be on the field doing something for the army I have changed my opinion of combat archery and siege.
There are still the chickens who want to use it as a paintball gun as they hide behind real warriors because they can't fight. And, there are people like these two ladies in my company that want to do archery because it gets them on the field, but they want to do it HISTORICALLY, and they have no problem standing and looking the person in the eye who bears down on them.

I know these ladies, and they will never utter the phrase "I yeild" in a battle. Other combat archers should follow thier example.

This is the way the Society should be.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I am fond of you, too. Just remember that I snuck up on you while standing right in front of you. I can't have people think I snake around and hit people from behind.
Tis true, the Cornbread Mafia (Stahlgeist) can fight like devils.

[Graedwyn]

Yeah, I like Nissan too.
He treats me better than
I deserve.

-Graedwyn

[Graedwyn]

Double post

[Graedwyn]

Double post