14th century splinted arms/legs

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:40 pm

I m gonna be making these. However I don't know the first thing about what sort of leather to buy. Help!

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:17 pm

You pretty much have two options:
1) thick leather which can use thinner (easier to cut and shape) metal splints, or
2) thinner leather using thicker steel splints.

Most of what I see is option 2 (like Stonekeep's arms and legs). This tends to be more durable and quicker to fashion. I'd suggest a 16 ga metal (preferably stainless or an even thicker aluminum or Kydex) splint material. And an oil tanned chap leather for a foundation to attach the splints to (suedes tend to stretch, and vegetable tanned leathers that are similar thickness aren't very durable/tear as well as are susceptable to mold issues).

I prefer the first option. I like to shape and harden the leather so it is astheticly pleasing in shape and it is how I interpret effigies of the period. Though not as durable, it is lighter then option 2. I use the thickest vegetable tanned leather I can get (14-16 oz. if you can get it). Tandy currently has half-hides of saddle skirting on sale for around $80. Armor bend, on the other hand, is not easy to form, so I would suggest staying away from it if you want to form it.

This is my upper arm defenses

And my greaves

Both of these are 13+ oz. leather that has been glue hardened and have 20 ga stainless steel splints.
-Cian

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:28 pm

Thanks! I am going to commission an armorer to make the splints for me since I just don't have the tools to make them like I want them (stainless or spring to match the knees/elbows). I love the shape of the greaves you made. It gives me something to aim for.

I have fairly thin arms so I am shooting for something that's a happy medium of light but durable and protective. I am an EMT and training to be a firefighter so I can't really afford to end up with a broken wrist or forearm if I can help it. :wink:

Marius Brittanicus · Post by **Marius Brittanicus** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:25 pm

Stone Keep sells SS splints..I highly recomend them. I have a set of their legs with the internal kydex...talk about light!

http://spiers-saddlery.stores.yahoo.net/stlegspe.html

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:35 pm

I was looking for them on their site yesterday and didn't see em. Thanks.

Marius Brittanicus · Post by **Marius Brittanicus** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:15 pm

NP! there service and product is top notch

Jess · Post by **Jess** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:55 pm

Cian of Storvik wrote:You pretty much have two options:
1) thick leather which can use thinner (easier to cut and shape) metal splints, or
2) thinner leather using thicker steel splints.
-Cian

I would second Cian's recommendation. I used to fight in legs with thinner leather with stainless splints. They sucked. Basically, the splints would get driven into the thigh, tearing up my hose and cutting my leg. I would definitely go with the thicker leather, especially on the legs.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:00 pm

It's looking like it's going to turn into a serious project. I love the slim tapered shape so I am gonna have to teach myself a crash course in leather hardening anyway.

Basically I don't want to get broken.

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:20 pm

If you are looking to purchase splints, you can get strips of metal from McMaster Carr, all you have to do it some minor shaping and drilling of holes.

I'm currently working on a set for a friend, once his elbow cops come in I'll post some pics if we remember to take any. His will be 8-10 oz latigo with 16 gauge stainless splints, for vambraces.

That is what my friend wanted, but normally I'd vote to go with thicker, hardened leather with thinner splints. I'll likely be doing some like that for myself, for a CotT appropriate harness.

Adam

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:23 pm

Thanks for the advice. Whatever I do has to be done with pretty basic tools.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:08 am

I find too often that SCA splint items have too thick a leather; let the metal do the work. 18g plates that overlap under 4-6oz leather work perfect IMHO.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:38 am

Adamo wrote:If you are looking to purchase splints, you can get strips of metal from McMaster Carr, all you have to do it some minor shaping and drilling of holes.

Yeah, but that's ugly and clunky as hell and totally lacks the finesse of shaped and formed splints (which so few people seem to take the time to do).

Effingham

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:34 am

James B. wrote:I find too often that SCA splint items have too thick a leather; let the metal do the work. 18g plates that overlap under 4-6oz leather work perfect IMHO.

What's the basis for this opinion, James ? Any sort of historical support ?

My practical experience leads me to the opposite conclusion, and from what I know the historic record is quiet on the subject.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:59 pm

Effingham wrote:
Adamo wrote:If you are looking to purchase splints, you can get strips of metal from McMaster Carr, all you have to do it some minor shaping and drilling of holes.

Yeah, but that's ugly and clunky as hell and totally lacks the finesse of shaped and formed splints (which so few people seem to take the time to do).

Effingham

The shaped look is really important, so I will more than likely end up commissioning an armorer to make some that I only have to do minor work on. I don't have a lot in the way of metal working tools.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:05 pm

Isabella E wrote:
Effingham wrote:
Adamo wrote:If you are looking to purchase splints, you can get strips of metal from McMaster Carr, all you have to do it some minor shaping and drilling of holes.

Yeah, but that's ugly and clunky as hell and totally lacks the finesse of shaped and formed splints (which so few people seem to take the time to do).

Effingham

The shaped look is really important, so I will more than likely end up commissioning an armorer to make some that I only have to do minor work on. I don't have a lot in the way of metal working tools.

More than just the look, the shaping lends structural strength to the splints. Too many splints are made of overly heavy material to make up for not having been given any shape at all. Put some curve into the splints, along both length and width, and you will have stronger splints for much less weight.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:48 pm

Kilkenny wrote:
James B. wrote:I find too often that SCA splint items have too thick a leather; let the metal do the work. 18g plates that overlap under 4-6oz leather work perfect IMHO.

What's the basis for this opinion, James ? Any sort of historical support ?

My practical experience leads me to the opposite conclusion, and from what I know the historic record is quiet on the subject.

I find SCA folks tend to over build items.

Look at the leather covered brigandines we have left to us; the leather is not that thick. Chef in the past has shown references for using alum-tanned goat skin and that was common in the 15th century in England. Goat skin is really thin (as I am sure you know) normally only 2-3oz.

How thick is the 14th century leather tournament armor that is extant? It was likely worn over maille but the leather only seems to be 4-6oz and it has no splints.

Wisby gantlets; I have a pair from the Moore Bros when they were making them and the leather is thick and I find it not flexible enough. I doubt the original leather was nearly that thick. One of my long-term projects is to re-leather the gauntlets and add a few thin plates some of the originals have.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:51 pm

James B. wrote:
Kilkenny wrote:
James B. wrote:I find too often that SCA splint items have too thick a leather; let the metal do the work. 18g plates that overlap under 4-6oz leather work perfect IMHO.

What's the basis for this opinion, James ? Any sort of historical support ?

My practical experience leads me to the opposite conclusion, and from what I know the historic record is quiet on the subject.

I find SCA folks tend to over build items.

Look at the leather covered brigandines we have left to us; the leather is not that thick. Chef in the past has shown references for using alum-tanned goat skin and that was common in the 15th century in England. Goat skin is really thin (as I am sure you know) normally only 2-3oz.

How thick is the 14th century leather tournament armor that is extant? It was likely worn over maille but the leather only seems to be 4-6oz and it has no splints.

Wisby gantlets; I have a pair from the Moore Bros when they were making them and the leather is thick and I find it not flexible enough. I doubt the original leather was nearly that thick. One of my long-term projects is to re-leather the gauntlets and add a few thin plates some of the originals have.

I see. Gauntlets and brigandines are distinctly different from cuisses, greaves and arm harness. The brigandine cover has obvious need for flexibility and is not itself a meaningful part of the defense, just a support for the plates. Wisby style gauntlets are a similar situation, the gauntlet cuff is not designed to allow full range of movement in itself (as are hour glass gauntlets, for example) and flex in the leather supporting the splints is needed for freedom of movement.

Properly fitted vambraces, rerebraces, cuisses and greaves can all be made from rigid plates. There is no need for the leather to flex in those applications. There is also genuine benefit in having the leather not flex, as it then more closely approaches the protection of full plate.

I've seen entirely too many SCA splint limb harnesses made from a light leather with heavy gauge splints riveted to it (often to the outside of the leather) where the leather was chewed up and ruined in short order.

We've a dirth of evidence regarding just what those early fourteenth splint defenses really are, which leaves us with too much speculation about how to recreate them :sad:

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:07 pm

There is one piece of surviving 14th century leather limb armour. One. It is thick and water-hardened.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:29 pm

Isabella E wrote:The shaped look is really important, so I will more than likely end up commissioning an armorer to make some that I only have to do minor work on. I don't have a lot in the way of metal working tools.

You need:
- ball-peen hammer
- drill & bits
- hacksaw or other way of cutting splints to length
- file
- stump, a small one will do

Use the round end of the hammer to beat little dishes or gutters in the stump, lay your metal strip over them and dish your splints so they're slightly convex from side to side. Dished splints with the edges filed round/smooth are far better than simple strips of metal. You can then form the leather to the shape of your legs as you harden it, then hammer the splints to fit the leather.

Here's some I made that way:

<img src="http://redweeds.com/images/armour/vambrace1.jpg">

<img src="http://redweeds.com/images/armour/vambrace2.jpg">

to go with these coulters:

<img src="http://redweeds.com/images/armour/coultier1.jpg">

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:53 pm

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:There is one piece of surviving 14th century leather limb armour. One. It is thick and water-hardened.

1 more than most other centuries, no?

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:34 pm

I have no idea what kind of drill bit to get that can do stainless or anything like that with a battery powered all purpose type drill for home projects. To be honest I'm no armorer. I can do the basics like peen rivets and stuff but I don't have the room in my house for taking on a new art without my husband wanting to murder me.

I'll probably end up spending a little bit to buy some nice splints that are already sanded and whatnot. A friend of mine has a nice punch that can do the holes.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:15 pm

Doing some thread necromancy so I can ask a question about construction.

I am not sure where exactly the elbows and knees should be attached to the leather so that the limb protection as a whole moves smoothly and doesn't bind or act weird. I hope I'm not asking a dumb question but I don't want to mess up a bunch of leather trying to figure it out. :\

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:23 pm

Isabella E wrote:Doing some thread necromancy so I can ask a question about construction.

I am not sure where exactly the elbows and knees should be attached to the leather so that the limb protection as a whole moves smoothly and doesn't bind or act weird. I hope I'm not asking a dumb question but I don't want to mess up a bunch of leather trying to figure it out. :\

I'm not one hundred percent sure what you are asking but go take a look at Luther Anselms splinted sport arm harness on his website. Should give you an idea.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:45 pm

Here's a pic from the post your harness thread. It's pretty much what I am trying to make.

http://www.ravenslake.com/assets/images ... 09kit2.jpg

What I am trying to figure out is what is the best/proper way to attach the cop to the greave and upper leg so that the leg harness is all one piece?

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:24 pm

Isabella E wrote:Here's a pic from the post your harness thread. It's pretty much what I am trying to make.

http://www.ravenslake.com/assets/images ... 09kit2.jpg

What I am trying to figure out is what is the best/proper way to attach the cop to the greave and upper leg so that the leg harness is all one piece?

Don't attach the knee to the greave. The demigreave in many instances in the 14th century floated over the top of the greave and was attached only to the cuisse. I think the SCA habit making the leg harness one piece results from people looking at advanced 15th century alwhyte armours and assuming that that was how it was done in all eras.

Check the photo:

You could use points to join everything together if that is what you really want to do. I personally favor a leg and arm harness that is not all one piece so that my limbs have more freedom of movement.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:01 pm

Makes sense. Should I attach the thigh to the knee though?

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:04 pm

Isabella E wrote:Makes sense. Should I attach the thigh to the knee though?

Yeah, I think that's quite legit.

Are the knees you will be using articulated or just a simple cop?

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:08 pm

Simple soupcan cop. Sorry if these are noob questions. I like to do stuff myself but I don't want to mess it up. >_<

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:16 pm

Isabella E wrote:Simple soupcan cop. Sorry if these are noob questions. I like to do stuff myself but I don't want to mess it up. >_<

I don't think these are noob questions at all.

I think that pointing the knee to the cuisse would be a very mobile and plausible way to do it with a soupcan style poleyn. Attach some dags of leather to the bottom of the knee and those will cover the gap between the knee and greave.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:27 pm

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:
Vitus von Atzinger wrote:There is one piece of surviving 14th century leather limb armour. One. It is thick and water-hardened.

1 more than most other centuries, no?

Despite the repeated assertions to the contrary, there is more. Dobson's excellent paper on the subject addresses several other surviving pieces. I don't have it here at work to pull citations. I've also had personal correspondence regarding surviving later period leather armour - whether or not it is hardened leather is unknown, however it is painted to resemble steel.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:33 pm

I am going to put some nice shaped splints on the outside so I'm probably not going to paint them, but just stain them nicely. I want thinking of doing some neat painting to the dagged decorated bit on the bottom of the knee though since I have lots of experience with 14th century manuscript motifs.

I am going to give the water hardening a shot. My biggest concenr is mostly getting the proper greave shape since the slim tapered style is so nice looking. I am going to test some smaller scraps to see how the leather feels and shapes before I do the big pieces though.

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:52 pm

Isabella E wrote:I am going to put some nice shaped splints on the outside so I'm probably not going to paint them, but just stain them nicely. I want thinking of doing some neat painting to the dagged decorated bit on the bottom of the knee though since I have lots of experience with 14th century manuscript motifs.

I am going to give the water hardening a shot. My biggest concenr is mostly getting the proper greave shape since the slim tapered style is so nice looking. I am going to test some smaller scraps to see how the leather feels and shapes before I do the big pieces though.

I made some hardened leather greaves that came out with a nice shape.

When shaping the greaves, to get that nice tapered effect, remember that the lower leg is not a simple tube. The calf has a long sweep on the outer side and a shorter sweep on the inside. Remember to make you pattern with that in mind. To get the center crease all I did was fold the leather to get the line. Then I shaped the calf and ankle areas and they came out really nice.

I made mine over two years ago, using the soak and bake method and they've held their shape despite getting wet a couple of times. Not only do they make your harness look complete, they are really nice to have for that occasional low blow to the shin.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:49 pm

I don't get a lot of rain where I live, but I might seal them with something to make them a bit more moisture resistant because of the big wars that seem to fall during the few soggy parts of the year here.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:54 pm

Isabella, are you SURE that the hand measurements you gave Eddie for your sword and dagger handles are correct? Did you take the measurements with a gauntlet on?

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:55 pm

I don't have any gauntlets yet.

I have thin girl hands and long fingers. I could send him a tracing if that would work best.