Meridian fighting culture

[dukelogan]

seth you are most welcomed in my camp (especially if you bring some miller lite! although we always have a variety of beverages available to guests). i actually do a pretty good job of not being too tied up at pennsic and will be there for both weeks. dinner service starts around 6ish and we would love to have you and some of your folks join us. if you let me know what day (not wed of war week as that is our court) and how many guests you will have we will see you then. bring mugs, we supply everything else.

i very much enjoyed meeting you are lutr and tessas and enjoyed our conversation. lets pick it up at pennsic and then talk more about the perceptions and ways to fix any issues there may be.

regards
logan

at the end of the day meridies plays one way and the rest of the sca plays another.
regards
logan

Your Majesty,

With all respect to your title and position, I am sorry you feel that way but it is simply not true. Rather than debating and rehashing all this yet again on an online forum where we cannot actually have a conversation, I look forward to sitting down with you at Pennsic and having a true expression of beliefs and ideas over a few beers. I invite anyone here who would care to continue this discussion to join us.

I know that as Crown at a major war you will be kept quit busy and sincerely hope you can find the time. I will bring the Miller Lite

In Service,
Duke Sir Seth of Newcastle
Meridies

[dukelogan]

i never suggested that you had to change your acknowledgement adriano. rather, that you would have to understand that a "clean and light" blow would not be accepted by the guy you hit with it. throwing blows with intent means different things to different people. for example, i had a marshal at gulf wars a few years ago tell me that if i didnt lower the power of my blows, at a meridian tourney there, that i would be asked to retire from the field.

i asked him why he would say such a thing and he responded that i was clearly throwing too hard and that i would injure someone. i informed him that ive been throwing blows that hard, and harder, for a decade and a half and i still have a line of folks that want to fight with me and they keep coming back, so clearly nobody was in danger. i also reminded him that he has no idea how hard im hitting people to which he responded "im the marshal and im not interested in arguing with you". wth is that! his buddy came over and told me that he agreed and that several folks were commenting on my blow force and that i would "end up denting someones helm and that is simply not acceptable". i asked them were they were from and they told me meridies and reminded me that this was a meridian tourney and would be run by meridian standards.

the next fight i legged my opponent and threw a three shot combo on him striking his shoulder with the last blow (second one was blocked, first one landed to the helm) and he made an "ooof" noise and grabbed his shoulder while laying on the ground smiling. the second marshal came over as i waited for the next guy and told me "this is your last warning!". i laughed and withdrew from the tourney. a few minutes later some baroness of meredies (cant rememeber her name) came over and apologized for their behavior and gave me a token. her boyfriend/husband was in the tourney and we had fought earlier and he was upset by the marshals and their pals who were apparently making loud comments on the sidelines. we talked for a minute or so more and i assured them that i wasnt concerned with it.

four people from the same kingdom with very different views on how to behave and how our sport is done. some folks are just a little nuts and that is the reality of every kingdom (we have some here i assure you). i think that the nuts leave a more lasting impression on people and that makes it difficult for there to be a clear understanding between our cultures. no different than the atlantian that wants everyone to hit him as hard as michael, cuan, or myself can hit him. he goes out of town and is unknown to everyone and makes us all look bad. every kingdom suffers from this. the important thing is to take each person and their actions on an individual basis.

regards
logan

when meridians come here (like the ones this weekend) they will learn to throw blows with intent (of which i have no doubt they can do as ive been hit plenty hard by them) and they will accept that "clean and light" is still light.

I've been throwing blows with intent, and accepting them judiciously, for a quarter century in Meridies. If we're ever engaged in a bout, I'll be calling blows I receive (if any) based upon my standards and judgement, not yours. That's generally how Meridians roll when we go to Pennsic, for example: we'll up our striking force if necessary, but not change our acceptance standards.

Then we can share some Miller Lite, or possibly some actual beer. Good times.

I was at a Gulf War years ago when someone stated "that was too hard! I will not take that blow!" I don"t know who smuggled crack into the event but get real...I apologized for the excessive force but the blow should have been good. Yes, he was Meridian.

I assure you, that'd be considered ridiculous anywhere in Meridies. Complaining is one thing, but not accepting a "too hard" blow isn't an option. Could be crack-related.

[Thorstenn]

These numbers mean very little. I have lived in central Florida for 25 years and the heat is almost unbearable in the summer. August is by far the hottest month as your chart shows but it does not factor in direct contact with the sun's UV rays Both Crown's I won it was over 130 on the field. Nor does it factor in the humidity.

When I go to Pennsic I get cold in armor if there is any breeze.


Thor.

Some other cities

[Leopold der Wolf]

Coming from Trimaris, my Meridian brothers and sisters do hit lighter and accept lighter blows. I can understand how alot of people get riled up because they perceive others as attacking their manhood or something when people say "Oh you guys are the lightest hitting Kingdom". I dont see it that way but yeah.

With that said the combat styles are a lot different too. In Trimaris the blows were thrown stout and fast with emphasis on fast. In Meridies the blows come lighter but the over all finesse/combination's/body movements seem to be faster and flashier making for some pretty wild mind-chess fights.

Also wanna say Hi to the guys in Arenal . Hope you can all make it to Tourney of the Foxes this year. It was a hell of a good time trying to take down the Arenal Shield Wall.

[Vebrand]

Heat plays part of the issues in Meridies and humidity plays part of the issue. Another part is the economy. Some of the poorest staest are in the south and going for cheaper armor some times is the easy choice.

I have seen guys in Meridies wear upper body armor of a kidney belt, blue paint, leather elbows, and demi-guantlets. That's right, not padded gambeson, no tunic, just bare skin. Not sure how many Kingdoms that is even done or considered.

I will say when I first came to Atlanta and showed up at an event I wore a Kidney belt and butted mail. I dropped the mail and was just fighting in the Kidney belt and was asked if I was crazy and didn't I know that was just asking to get hurt. Now I have fought several guys including HM Logan and really they don't hit any harder than guys in Meridies or else where. I know Seth can deliver a stout blow and Prince Boru almost took my head off once.

I often tell people the actual difference between Meridies and Atlantia is whole lot less than the precieved/rumor difference.

Vebrand

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Other than the Miller Lite love...

This

He decides restraint is called for and pulls the blow at the last moment and in the process delivers a shot that would be called marginal at best. Knowing that my opponent could have delivered that same blow at full force and could have left me a reminder of my stupidity that would last for a full 2 weeks, he chose restraint, and thus I honor his courtesy by accepting the blow knowing that it could have been much worse.

is probably one of the weirder things I have ever read.

I mean I could see such a thing happening in wars - where engagement can be a close thing - or even rarely in a single bout where someone makes such an unbelievable positioning error - such that their back is completely turned that it's truly a mercy on the part of the striker - or even fighting someone new enough and easy enough to hit that you are honestly worried for them.

But between two experience fighters in the heat of battle? If I am fooled badly enough to give this shot - what makes you think I can tell if you are "pulling a shot to be nice" or not. And in fact, in the melee situations in which I have pulled a shot or taken a "non shot" it has always been at the decretion of the vanquished. I have heard "m'lord did you pull that shot" before - and the answer is almost always "Absolutely not, please don't take it".

EDIT: OR CUP SHOTS! Actually, I "neck shots" are an acceptable answer as well, but not capitialized.[/i]

[maxntropy]

Now I have fought several guys including HM Logan and really they don't hit any harder than guys in Meridies or else where. I know Seth can deliver a stout blow and Prince Boru almost took my head off once.

I might only add that it is impossible to compare a population distribution by looking at the absolute top percentile (who are statistically the outliers) -- you really need to compare by examing the means and medians (i.e. the average fighters).

I believe the top fighters in every Kingdom will be competitive across the Knowne Worlde, and generally travel much and have proven such.

I believe the question at hand is more about the culture of fighting in general, the behavior and approach of your average fighter, and perhaps some outlier cases of extreme behavior that some cultural approaches might engender.

In service,

Max Von Halstern

[Dmitriy]

Max -- now that you bring up statistics I can't help but wonder if the distribution of delivery power amongst the Meridies fighting population is a power law


Ah geek jokes.. I crack myself up.

-D

[Cisco]

But between two experience fighters in the heat of battle? If I am fooled badly enough to give this shot - what makes you think I can tell if you are "pulling a shot to be nice" or not. And in fact, in the melee situations in which I have pulled a shot or taken a "non shot" it has always been at the decretion of the vanquished. I have heard "m'lord did you pull that shot" before - and the answer is almost always "Absolutely not, please don't take it".

Well, if someone pulls a shot to be nice, then that's on the thrower. The receiver of said shot doesn't have to call it and it is not dishonorable not to take a shot that wasn't good enough.

I try and encourage the pulling of shots if it's going for my groin, for example, and will always take the kill.

I guess it's just a custom for the most part. Some people pull shots to be nice. We have some well-respected fighters who, if you don't hit them hard enough, won't take a shot. And if you pulled it to be nice, well then you pulled it and it wasn't hard enough.

[maxntropy]

Max -- now that you bring up statistics I can't help but wonder if the distribution of delivery power amongst the Meridies fighting population is a power law

I think it undoubtedly follows a homoscedastic distribution rather than the general heteroscedastic distribution found in other kingdoms. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

And really... please don't take offense at statistics jokes. They're simply regressive and probably not significant.

Max Von Halstern

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

[
I try and encourage the pulling of shots if it's going for my groin, for example, and will always take the kill.

Ulp! Forgot this one, and amended my post

[Cisco]

I have heard "m'lord did you pull that shot" before - and the answer is almost always "Absolutely not, please don't take it".

So, accepting that people will pull cup shots or neck shots so as not to break people, and removing that as a scenario here...what if you pulled a shot to be nice and they asked you? Would you say no? Or is pulling of shots to be nice (again, outside of cup shots and the like) something that's simply not done in your area?

[mordreth]

Max -- now that you bring up statistics I can't help but wonder if the distribution of delivery power amongst the Meridies fighting population is a power law

I think it undoubtedly follows a homoscedastic distribution rather than the general heteroscedastic distribution found in other kingdoms. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

And really... please don't take offense at statistics jokes. They're simply regressive and probably not significant.

Max Von Halstern

So you're saying you didn't quite have the personality to become a CPA and instead entered the high powered, high paced field of ?

[carlyle]

Well - yeah but A fighter tries to have a reasonably consistent standard of what they will call good. The blows that fall on the edge of that standard are just that, on the edge... it's a reasonable decision making process to say - I had to think about it - it was good. It doesn't necessarily lead to a slippery slope, it leads to continuing to walk along the path, with a bit of blur at the edges... The inverse, based on your reasoning, leads to a fighter who cannot be defeated by many opponents because they kept sliding their calibration upwards through this iterative process.

I just replied privately to a similar line of reasoning; here follows my response:

In requiring forceful blows ("convince me I'm defeated"), then honor prevents the fighter struck from ignoring blows that have met the minimum requirement for being "good". Honor becomes the barrier to escalation; a good blow is one that wasn't blocked and that struck with enough force that the defender didn't have to think about whether it was "good enough".

From what was described in the thread ("if I have to think about it, it's good"), however, it would seem that honor would lead the defender to taking consistently lighter blows, since the calibration would necessarily slip as every "thought about" blow became the next "good" one. What I can't see from what was presented (and it may simply be understood by those who use this model) is what creates the "floor" below which the fighting community will not go. Anecdotally, wehn you say you "will take almost a touch kill", it indeed sounds like you're describing the bottom of the slope. Why would your opponents strive to deliver anything more? And having established a precedent, why would their other oponents, struck with the same blow you just took and guided by the principle of "if I have to think about it, it's good", also not be compelled by honor to yield?

Respectfully... AoC

[maxntropy]

So you're saying you didn't quite have the personality to become a CPA and instead entered the high powered, high paced field of ?

Hey, man... Don't knock the Doctoral Training received from the RAND Corporation! We provide lots've valuable strategery to Generals and stuff.

Gluteus Maximus

[Leopold der Wolf]

Those people saying we wear less armor brings up a good point. When I fight people wearing minimum armor I find myself hitting them less hard. You don't need to hit a guy in the ribs hard for him to call it if he's only wearing a tunic over it.

Is the armor standard of the other kingdoms that much higher? The most gear I see meridians wearing is usually a coat of scale, tunic, some leg armor and the normal bascinet. And thats the high end fighters too.

Guys in my area for the most part wear minimum armor with nice tunics/cloth clothes. The two squires wear more metal however. I myse;f just wear metal elbows/knees/leather vambraces and a coat of leather plates.

[Cisco]

From what was described in the thread ("if I have to think about it, it's good"), however, it would seem that honor would lead the defender to taking consistently lighter blows, since the calibration would necessarily slip as every "thought about" blow became the next "good" one. What I can't see from what was presented (and it may simply be understood by those who use this model) is what creates the "floor" below which the fighting community will not go.

Just as honor would prevent calibration from going up to an unfair level it prevents it from going down to an unfair level. If one were to follow the letter of the rules I could see it going down but I believe that most of us follow the spirit of the rules instead.

[dukelogan]

you wear a lot more than i do. metal knees i do have, the elbows are hockey. all the rest of the stuff you wear is more than the tabard i wear.



regards
logan

Those people saying we wear less armor brings up a good point. When I fight people wearing minimum armor I find myself hitting them less hard. You don't need to hit a guy in the ribs hard for him to call it if he's only wearing a tunic over it.

Is the armor standard of the other kingdoms that much higher? The most gear I see meridians wearing is usually a coat of scale, tunic, some leg armor and the normal bascinet. And thats the high end fighters too.

Guys in my area for the most part wear minimum armor with nice tunics/cloth clothes. The two squires wear more metal however. I myse;f just wear metal elbows/knees/leather vambraces and a coat of leather plates.

[carlyle]

Just as honor would prevent calibration from going up to an unfair level it prevents it from going down to an unfair level. If one were to follow the letter of the rules I could see it going down but I believe that most of us follow the spirit of the rules instead.

This probably falls into the catogory of the "understanding" all y'all have that I don't get from the discussion. What isn't clear to me, though, is how these two components of the honor-bound action, to accept a questionable blow without going below a "minimum" blow standard, are resolved. Don't they seem to be in conflict?

Respectfully,

Alfred of Carlyle

[mordreth]

So you're saying you didn't quite have the personality to become a CPA and instead entered the high powered, high paced field of ?

Hey, man... Don't knock the Doctoral Training received from the RAND Corporation! We provide lots've valuable strategery to Generals and stuff.

Gluteus Maximus

believe me, if you work with stats you never have to prove your endurance or courage to me

[Leopold der Wolf]

you wear a lot more than i do. metal knees i do have, the elbows are hockey. all the rest of the stuff you wear is more than the tabard i wear.



regards
logan

Those people saying we wear less armor brings up a good point. When I fight people wearing minimum armor I find myself hitting them less hard. You don't need to hit a guy in the ribs hard for him to call it if he's only wearing a tunic over it.

Is the armor standard of the other kingdoms that much higher? The most gear I see meridians wearing is usually a coat of scale, tunic, some leg armor and the normal bascinet. And thats the high end fighters too.

Guys in my area for the most part wear minimum armor with nice tunics/cloth clothes. The two squires wear more metal however. I myse;f just wear metal elbows/knees/leather vambraces and a coat of leather plates.

And your a high end fighter to boot. Do you see a big difference in the over all armor coverage levels between kingdoms?

[dukelogan]

i stopped asking that exact same question when i would hear folks suggest that thinking about a shot made the shot good. the concept boggled my mind, still does.

on the idea of pulling shots, i quit doing that some years ago. what i do, and what i teach, is that if you have someone dead to rights (ie melee and youve wrapped their line for example) just hit them with force to the helm. cant hurt a guy through his helm with a stout blow. make it so he has no doubt at all that he was struck. if he doesnt accept the blow, fold him. usually turning it up one or two notches and hitting the shoulder, hamstring, side of the biceps, neck, or lower back will work. inner thigh will also. since i stopped doing the nice guy tap ive only had one or two times where the head shot didnt work.

most recently, at blackstone, i closed with a guy with one of the funny nutsticks folks call unpadded polearms. silly non-medieval weapon . anyway, he was legged and i stepped in tight on him and looked down, he looked up and i made the mistake of thinking that he realized he was bested and that he would just go ressurect. anyhow, he slumped down on his heels and i turned to bother finn and andrew when this cat suddenly shuffles back about 10' and tries to hit me. im thinking "what the hell did he think just happened?" i stepped in on him and cracked him across his lower back with the upper range of my scale and he made that oooof sounds and rolled around a bit. had i just stuck to my plan and hit him in the helm with something stout it would have been better. or, had he thought for a second......

at gulf wars, however, in the five man i closed on edmund (who was legged) and tapped his lower back. he looked over his shoulder (which was eye level with me!) and thanked me, called himself bested, retired from the field. i think if i had just hit his helm the result would have been the same. so, no more pulled shots.

regards
logan

Well - yeah but A fighter tries to have a reasonably consistent standard of what they will call good. The blows that fall on the edge of that standard are just that, on the edge... it's a reasonable decision making process to say - I had to think about it - it was good. It doesn't necessarily lead to a slippery slope, it leads to continuing to walk along the path, with a bit of blur at the edges... The inverse, based on your reasoning, leads to a fighter who cannot be defeated by many opponents because they kept sliding their calibration upwards through this iterative process.

I just replied privately to a similar line of reasoning; here follows my response:

In requiring forceful blows ("convince me I'm defeated"), then honor prevents the fighter struck from ignoring blows that have met the minimum requirement for being "good". Honor becomes the barrier to escalation; a good blow is one that wasn't blocked and that struck with enough force that the defender didn't have to think about whether it was "good enough".

From what was described in the thread ("if I have to think about it, it's good"), however, it would seem that honor would lead the defender to taking consistently lighter blows, since the calibration would necessarily slip as every "thought about" blow became the next "good" one. What I can't see from what was presented (and it may simply be understood by those who use this model) is what creates the "floor" below which the fighting community will not go. Anecdotally, wehn you say you "will take almost a touch kill", it indeed sounds like you're describing the bottom of the slope. Why would your opponents strive to deliver anything more? And having established a precedent, why would their other oponents, struck with the same blow you just took and guided by the principle of "if I have to think about it, it's good", also not be compelled by honor to yield?

Respectfully... AoC

[Arminius]

All of this heat talk....crazy...I practiced in the snow (Thursday nights, outside of a school) for several months this winter. Gotta hit hard just to get the blood flowing!

[dukelogan]

i think so. the meridians that ive seen seem to mostly wear some kind of body, shoulder, and forearm armour and while many of them look like they are wearing their sleepy pants (damned early personas and their easy garb!) they appear to have some kind of leg armour as well. in atlantia most guys wear little body armour and arm armour is about 50/50.

guys in the east tend to wear a lot of full body harness and i think its a rule in the middle that you must wear lamellar and carry a centergrip. most of the biker kingdom guys (out in the texas, new mexico, arizona, areas) tend to wear a tan and 5% body fat. i think its all what you are exposed to when you start out.

regards
logan

you wear a lot more than i do. metal knees i do have, the elbows are hockey. all the rest of the stuff you wear is more than the tabard i wear.



regards
logan

Those people saying we wear less armor brings up a good point. When I fight people wearing minimum armor I find myself hitting them less hard. You don't need to hit a guy in the ribs hard for him to call it if he's only wearing a tunic over it.

Is the armor standard of the other kingdoms that much higher? The most gear I see meridians wearing is usually a coat of scale, tunic, some leg armor and the normal bascinet. And thats the high end fighters too.

Guys in my area for the most part wear minimum armor with nice tunics/cloth clothes. The two squires wear more metal however. I myse;f just wear metal elbows/knees/leather vambraces and a coat of leather plates.

And your a high end fighter to boot. Do you see a big difference in the over all armor coverage levels between kingdoms?

[Cisco]

...in atlantia most guys wear little body armour and arm armour is about 50/50.

...guys in the east tend to wear a lot of full body harness...

Really? I had noticed that many of the Atlantians that I have seen tend to wear large, somewhat bulky tabards and I saw the same of Easterners. I had assumed with both that they wore some sort of body armor...effectively a full upper-body harness.

So it's normal in your area for the elbow cop and that's it (for about half of the guys, for arms)?

edited b/c I'm a retard and can't spell

[dukelogan]

its probably more like 35 to 40% that wear anything on their arm beside an elbow cop.

regards
logan

...in atlantia most guys wear little body armour and arm armour is about 50/50.

...guys in the east tend to wear a lot of full body harness...

Really? I had noticed that many of the Atlantians that I have seen tend to wear large, somewhat bulky tabards and I saw the same of Easterners. I had assumed with both that they wore some sort of body armor...effectively a full upper-body harness.

So it's normal in your area for the elbow cop and that's it (for about half of the guys, for arms)?

edited b/c I'm a retard and can't spell

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

I have heard "m'lord did you pull that shot" before - and the answer is almost always "Absolutely not, please don't take it".

So, accepting that people will pull cup shots or neck shots so as not to break people, and removing that as a scenario here...what if you pulled a shot to be nice and they asked you? Would you say no? Or is pulling of shots to be nice (again, outside of cup shots and the like) something that's simply not done in your area?

Outside of the rare and extreme cases outlined above - no - people do not pull shots for fear of putting a bruise on someone.

Pulling shots is clearly a bad training technique - because how can you POSSIBLY assume that your opponent (in a tourney) will understand that you pulled the shot, unless he is taking anything "clean" anyway? By bad training technique I mean that doing it will lose you fights in a tournament - because you are delivering a blow YOU KNOW NOT TO BE GOOD (my definition of "pulling" a shot) in the hope that your brother in arms reads your intent correctly and already understands that you have beaten him. This is clearly distinct from an "honorable" defeat where your opponent is dishonorable or cheating, but because you are not granting him the service of an undoubted telling blow.

If the blow is telling even after you pull it - then you are not really pulling it - but I think we can see how this attitude leads to a lower level of calibration overall in an area.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

its probably more like 35 to 40% that wear anything on their arm beside an elbow cop.

Derail... but it's also an interkingdom anthropology question:

How does Atlantia (uh... that's the populace, not "as represented by You, the August Majesty thereof) regard the targeting of arms?

In the East - it seemed that it would be done without remorse when the target presented itself - especially to prevent poor techinique - but you would the "hunting" or or manuvering to obtain an arm was not taught.

In the West, it is a reasonably strong cultural preference - mostly for RH S&S vs RH S&S fighters to *explicitly* not target an arm, to the point of apologizing if one is struck, and often giving up your shield arm in response. Once you throw left handed, great weapons or two weapon fighters in the mix, this kind of goes out the window, because hey , arms get hit.

I was given a story about how Duke Paul essentially "caused" this convention by breaking people's arms (no one wore vambraces back in the day). I heard a similar story about "and that's why we wear kidney belts" as well.... so possibly apocryphal.

It's interesting that 30-40% of Atlantians wear vambraces, because fraction in the West is much higher, I would guess around 80-90% (barring some spear dueling). And we are NOT trying to hit each other in the arm!

[dukelogan]

we target them and hit them.

regards
logan

its probably more like 35 to 40% that wear anything on their arm beside an elbow cop.

Derail... but it's also an interkingdom anthropology question:

How does Atlantia (uh... that's the populace, not "as represented by You, the August Majesty thereof) regard the targeting of arms?

In the East - it seemed that it would be done without remorse when the target presented itself - especially to prevent poor techinique - but you would the "hunting" or or manuvering to obtain an arm was not taught.

In the West, it is a reasonably strong cultural preference - mostly for RH S&S vs RH S&S fighters to *explicitly* not target an arm, to the point of apologizing if one is struck, and often giving up your shield arm in response. Once you throw left handed, great weapons or two weapon fighters in the mix, this kind of goes out the window, because hey , arms get hit.

I was given a story about how Duke Paul essentially "caused" this convention by breaking people's arms (no one wore vambraces back in the day). I heard a similar story about "and that's why we wear kidney belts" as well.... so possibly apocryphal.

It's interesting that 30-40% of Atlantians wear vambraces, because fraction in the West is much higher, I would guess around 80-90% (barring some spear dueling). And we are trying to to hit each other in the arm!

[Leopold der Wolf]

I like hitting arms. if they have no armor though I try not to hit full blast like I would to a head or torso though.

[paulb]

Sigifrith wrote:

I was given a story about how Duke Paul essentially "caused" this convention by breaking people's arms (no one wore vambraces back in the day). I heard a similar story about "and that's why we wear kidney belts" as well.... so possibly apocryphal.

You got it partially right. I did break Radnor's arm, which encouraged wearing of vambraces, but did not make it into a law. The kidney belts were a result of me hitting someone in the unarmoured kidneys, hard enough to cause some unfortunate effects.

The sometimes cultural bias in the West - which I do not share and do not encourage - of not targeting arms was started by Master Edwin Bersark and friends, who held that it was more chivalrous to go for the killing blow instead of the wound. I noticed that this did not stop Edwin and friends from throwing leg blows.

This was misinterpreted by some, who also thought that their attitude was (or should be) the attitude of the whole kingdom.

Personally, I feel that the arm is a legal target, and if exposed, should be liable to be struck without any cultural penalty. If nothing else, that discourages the use of the arm as a second shield by some who think their arm shouldn't be hit.

Regards,

[asbrand]

But between two experience fighters in the heat of battle? If I am fooled badly enough to give this shot - what makes you think I can tell if you are "pulling a shot to be nice" or not. And in fact, in the melee situations in which I have pulled a shot or taken a "non shot" it has always been at the decretion of the vanquished. I have heard "m'lord did you pull that shot" before - and the answer is almost always "Absolutely not, please don't take it".

I've actually "pulled the shot" in a tournament before, as well as several times at Fighter Practice.

Almost every time, it is where I've legged my opponent, then closed in, and trapped their shield or what have you, and have a completely unobstructed view of the backside of their helm, and their back. Sure, I could wallop them to my heart's content, uncontested. I usually just start tapping the back of their helmet to let them know I have a totally open shot, and I'm being nice and not ripping their head off, or denting their spine.

If they don't wanna "take" the shot, that's fine by me. I'm just being courteous. I can still whack 'em like a baby harp seal if they prefer.

[Richard Blackmoore]

Your Grace Sean,
Hotter in Atlanta so they wear less armor? With out any disrespect intended; I must say, "Yeah I hope that was a joke."
I guess the weather in Tampa and Orlando or in Phoenix and San Diego doesn"t illicit the "less armor so we take lighter" defense. The boys and girls in Trimaris, Ateveldt, and Caid don"t seem to mind taking or giving what is concidered a "good" blow. I never start anywhere near the top of my blow strength when fighting new folks. So what I am about to recall should be absorbe with that statement in mind.

I was at a Gulf War years ago when someone stated "that was too hard! I will not take that blow!" I don"t know who smuggled crack into the event but get real...I appoloogized for the excessive force but the blow should have been good. Yes, he was Meridian.

Syr Christian Darmody, KSCA Atlantia
who has traveled recently to Trimaris, Atenveldt and Caid

I had run into the same thing, but a long time ago. For a while on the armour archive my tag line was "Light. Light. Light. Excessive!!! - SCA definition of whining" It was directed partly at Meridies since that is where it seemed to originate from. And there was one Meridian who had set up a blog/website that had comments supporting very light/clean shot calibration, that link ended up on numerous lists including at least one chiv list, giving many people the feeling that, along with other comments, that Meridies was ramming hyper light calibration down the throats of those living there or visiting there to fight.

And plenty of my friends, many of whom I respect and trust, told me similar horror stories about Meridian light calibration, active marshalling, etc.

So frankly I expected to see a lot of problems down there even though I hoped I would not.

And I have a real problem with any kingdom trying to drive calibration to unreasonably low standards as I believe that changes our game to Armoured Fencing or tag, where unrealistic whippy, light blows will dominate.

All I can say is that, while I was at the most recent Gulf Wars, I did not see any of the hyper light problematic calibration. Nor did I see active marshalling in the sense of people calling other's dead. All good.

I discussed the issues, old reports of horror stories, recent reports of problems with Meridians and others. They made it clear there had been some problems in the past that were real, that a limited number of people still promote very light calibration, but that it is not the current norm in most of the kingdom. And after fighting their king, their prince, several of their knights and dukes, I had no problem with what they were doing.

And on the courtesy thing? They were exceptionally courteous.

[asbrand]

i think so. the meridians that ive seen seem to mostly wear some kind of body, shoulder, and forearm armour and while many of them look like they are wearing their sleepy pants (damned early personas and their easy garb!) they appear to have some kind of leg armour as well. in atlantia most guys wear little body armour and arm armour is about 50/50.

I guess I'm one of the exceptions here in Meridies.

I wear a full brigandine of leather, full arms, full legs, helm, and gorget. Granted, it is all leather (aside from helm), but everything is covered. Only other steel on me is a few plates on the leather flap covering the CUP area, basket hilts, and shield boss. My half-gauntlets are aluminum (until I have time to make leather ones).

Me on the left: http://www.asbrand.com/pics/sca/owls_ne ... 6.jpg.html

Been fighting in Meridies my entire SCA "life" (25+ years).

[dukelogan]

i would say you are hardly the exception to the rule since i looked at all 84 pictures on that site you linked and every one of the fighters appears to be armoured head to toe. every one of them is wearing some kind of lamellar or brig on their upper body, and it looks like every one has some kind of arm, shoulder, and heavy hand protection as well. i guess that event was held in that section of meridies that isnt too hot to wear armour.

anyway, thats what i was talking about when i said that the meridians ive seen are all covered up and that is why i opined that the "we take lighter because its too hot to wear armour" thing was bogus.

regards
logan

i think so. the meridians that ive seen seem to mostly wear some kind of body, shoulder, and forearm armour and while many of them look like they are wearing their sleepy pants (damned early personas and their easy garb!) they appear to have some kind of leg armour as well. in atlantia most guys wear little body armour and arm armour is about 50/50.

I guess I'm one of the exceptions here in Meridies.

I wear a full brigandine of leather, full arms, full legs, helm, and gorget. Granted, it is all leather (aside from helm), but everything is covered. Only other steel on me is a few plates on the leather flap covering the CUP area, basket hilts, and shield boss. My half-gauntlets are aluminum (until I have time to make leather ones).

Me on the left: http://www.asbrand.com/pics/sca/owls_ne ... 6.jpg.html

Been fighting in Meridies my entire SCA "life" (25+ years).