Wearing steel - what do we gain? what do we lose?

[Owyn]

In the game of SCA rattan fighting, we have a lot of options for armor. Even ignoring the "oh god, that's ugly!" kits out there, we still have many options. We can arm ourselves with hidden lightweight mundane gear. We can use aluminum to give good protection but dump weight. Some fighters tend to minimize the weight and mobility loss of armor.

Or, we can wear steel. By that, I mean try to wear harness that looks and feels something like the historical equivalent. That could be steel mail, or steel plate protection.

One could wear mild steel arms, spaulders, legs, and steel coat of plates. Or, I could wear aluminum elbow and knee cops, aluminum or plastic splinted arms and legs, and plastic for the coat of plates. And some people are at either end of that spectrum. Many are somewhere in the middle. Both kits might look very good, and be good enough to pass the "ten paces rule".

A friend of mine commented that he wears steel - non-stainless, in fact - because he wants to come as close as he can to experiencing what the warriors of the past did. It'll never be perfect, but he wants to reach out and come as close as he can to touching that.

I'm wondering what other folks here feel about the pros and cons of each. What are your experiences, and how do you think your choices in armor have affected them?

[BobKnight]

You gain +5 AC at the very least

[Leo Medii]

I gave up my full steel harness once to be a better sport fighter.
It took that to realize that I didn't want to be a sport fighter, I wanted to be a fighter.

In my less affluent state it is taking a long time to get back what I lost by giving my harness up.

Some people, like your freind want to experience what they did, and feel what they felt, and suffer as they did in the contest of arms.
Some want to use the rules system to be able to excel in a level playing field with those doing the above.

I prefer to follow the same path your freind is. I am a medieval combatant, and a member of the gentry class who desire renown both through deeds of arms and the renown of my visual appearnce to my peers, just as they did. To me, as to them, my armor is a statement of my intent, ideals and my desires. It is an extention of my body and soul.

I prefer my soul to espouse steel and leather, not the bucket that car wash soap came out of last month.

[audax]

My goal, ultimately, is to have a harness that a warrior of the upper class in 1364 would have used on the battlefield.

With the advent of spring steel, especially spring stainless, there should be nothing given up in terms of weight, Mobility is less an issue of material than it is of proper fit.

I tend to agree with your friend. I do not wish to fight simply a game of hits-with-sticks. I could do that without ever armouring up. What i want to is to have a close experience of what it was like to be an armoured warrior in the Medieval period.

I do not believe for one second that that is mutually exclusive to being effective at fighting in the SCA.

[Thorstenn]

As the rules are made up there is no way to keep us all on an even playing field. Late period verses early period. A lot of early period wore very little armor compared to late German but our combat conventions are the same.
I really love to see someone in a fantastic looking historic kit, it makes my war/event/practice that much more special and fills me with inspiration to look better myself.
The ones that get me are the late period fighters that dont want to wear any armor that they should have in the first place i.e. late period in just a kidney belt SCA minimums.

Maybe I should hold a couple of armor as worn tourneys soon. This could be fun.

Thor.

I gave up my full steel harness once to be a better sport fighter.
It took that to realize that I didn't want to be a sport fighter, I wanted to be a fighter.

In my less affluent state it is taking a long time to get back what I lost by giving my harness up.

Some people, like your freind want to experience what they did, and feel what they felt, and suffer as they did in the contest of arms.
Some want to use the rules system to be able to excel in a level playing field with those doing the above.

I prefer to follow the same path your freind is. I am a medieval combatant, and a member of the gentry class who desire renown both through deeds of arms and the renown of my visual appearnce to my peers, just as they did. To me, as to them, my armor is a statement of my intent, ideals and my desires. It is an extention of my body and soul.

I prefer my soul to espouse steel and leather, not the bucket that car wash soap came out of last month.

[Blaine de Navarre]

I admire the hell out of guys like Leo who wear lots of armour and fight very well, even if they don't quite break into the absolute top echelon of our sport.

I admire the hell out of guys who fight at the highest level in a kidney belt.

When (not if) someone pushes himself to do both, I will be awestruck. It will happen.

For myself, I have found a comfortable place on the spectrum between pure sport fighting and pure accurate gear. I wear a 25 lb hauberk, but concealed plastic for my arms and legs. I wear a bar grille. I try not to make a habit of basket-blocking, but I don't disdain to do so when necessary.

Each of us must find his/her own path in this game; there is not one true way to play.

[Koredono]

[snip]
I'm wondering what other folks here feel about the pros and cons of each. What are your experiences, and how do you think your choices in armor have affected them?

I have two completely unrelated thoughts on this topic:

1. Steel vs. plastic (or equiv) or authentic vs. not does not always equate to heavier vs. lighter - my full ABS plastic kit actually weighs more than the real period armor it's based up (I know, I've actually held the real 500-year-old armor at the same time) and my helmet weighs more than it's period counterpart, because we have different goals than our historical models: we are using blunt concussive objects repeatedly and want to avoid injuries which could affect our working during the week, while more often than not they were protecting against sharp weapons where one blow could be fatal, or at least permanently debilitating.

2. Especially when it comes to rigid steel arms and legs (as opposed to other body parts), very often it seems to take significantly stiffer shots for people to recognize them than if they had 'lighter' rigid armor on (aluminum, hardened leather, plastic), and even against the same person with the same gauge steel on their body or head; this appears to be true regardless of regional differences, weapons forms, skill / experience of either of the combattants, or anything else. I'm not sure what exactly it means or why it is the case, but it is something I've noticed over the years.

[Noe]

tiny tiny rule change with interesting ramifications: any strike to an unarmoured target cannot be called "light."

Unarmoured targets are anything with cloth or less. Bar grills count as unarmoured.

In avalon we do this with plastic armour as well. Plastic armour is just considered to be "not there" and you cannot disregard a blow as light (unless it is just truly ridiculous).

[Edmund of Hertford]

I gave up my full steel harness once to be a better sport fighter.
It took that to realize that I didn't want to be a sport fighter, I wanted to be a fighter.

In my less affluent state it is taking a long time to get back what I lost by giving my harness up.

Some people, like your freind want to experience what they did, and feel what they felt, and suffer as they did in the contest of arms.
Some want to use the rules system to be able to excel in a level playing field with those doing the above.

I prefer to follow the same path your freind is. I am a medieval combatant, and a member of the gentry class who desire renown both through deeds of arms and the renown of my visual appearnce to my peers, just as they did. To me, as to them, my armor is a statement of my intent, ideals and my desires. It is an extention of my body and soul.

I prefer my soul to espouse steel and leather, not the bucket that car wash soap came out of last month.

I admire the spirit, intent, and appearance of the folks who wear full harness.

But, and forgive me if I misread your intent, you seem to be dismissing those of us who do not as being merely sport fighters gaming the rules.

I wore metal harness for a number of years. I ended up choosing to go to other materials (plastic at first which was not good armor for me, settling on leather) because I did not have this skill to keep it looking good (and paying someone every month to fix it got expensive) and because the garments needed to keep me from getting bit was detrimental to me being able to participate(heat sick).

I am sure there are people out there who try to work the system by wearing less armor just as there are guys who are nearly invulnerable to any blow that hits their armor. But please be careful using such a broad sounding statement about those of us who wear something other than full steel harness ( I won't even go to the time period/persona argument)

[Maeryk]

You lose: The advantage, whether percieved or real, of wearing swiss cheese plastic under a showcoat and calling it "armor".

you gain: Looks of admiration, spiff points, and the knowledge that out of the folks out there, _you_ are amongst a tiny higher eschelon of people who are far closer to "doing it for real" than the aforementioned plastic fanboys.

And you are far FAR less likely to get broken.

[Sean Powell]

I gave up my full steel harness once to be a better sport fighter.
It took that to realize that I didn't want to be a sport fighter, I wanted to be a fighter.

I also went through that same transition with a few important differences. My full steel harnes was built to SCA durability (and therefore very heavy) The lack of pain from impacts combined with the added general muscle fatigue from swinging and blocking created a negative feedback loop for me that actually taught me bad fighting habits and made me less effective of a sport fighter...

but I kept the suit and bring it out for special occasions (Like a chalenge with Aaron this weekend) There is a fantastic feeling that comes from being in ARMOR. It is like no other feeling I know. It's like changing from joe average into Superman.

There is also a thrill from the adrenilin rush of fighting with almost no protection.

I've realized that other priorities (Personal health, Family, Job, etc.) may keep me from dedicating myself to becoming one of the very best fighters. I hope to become a very good fighter eventually. In the mean time I still get a wonderful feel from doing it 'right'. And 'right' can take as much effort as 'best', it just relies on a different skill set that is being utilized.

Side note: When someone says that it is too expensive to do the full steel thing and is driving all over creatin in a V-8 Pickup to catch the big events and the hot practices plus replacing rattan on a bi-weekly basis, they have decided to spend their money and time elsewhere. It is expensive to do BOTH but neither is cheep.

And I'm not being derisive of those people who want to do it right in early period gear and still fight. That's different then wanting to fight and deciding that the easist way to do it right and be a great fighter is to do it early period as a justification for hidden armor.

To each their own. Maybe one day the magic of spring steel will let those people who want to fight great do so in a good harness and let thos who want to feel look and great do so while fighting well.

Sorry for rambling,
Sean

[blackbow]

You know, it's interesting. the period enthusiasts wax enthusiastic about the "fact" that they "get to exist like they did back then."

People, don't kid yourselves. It wasn't some romanticized thing like what we do. your life isn't on the line here. You're not fighting for a damn thing other than fun.

Yes, there are people out there who make armor for a living, or because it's fun to them. But the ones who do it professionally? Most of them have ways to bend the metal that don't involve wearing their elbows out with a hammer for hours on end. They've moved to hydraulic hammers. They, like me, fell out of love with the idea of destroying their physiques for a game and went to the most reasonable alternative.

Remember Karate Kid II? Daniel and Miyagi are at the airport on Okinawa. Daniel sees the picture of the guy breaking the tree trunk with his hand. Looks at Miyagi. Asks if he can do that. Miyagi says, "don't know. Never been attacked by tree."

You guys that want to wear steel, knock yourselves out. When that much weight screws up your joints and cuts your active hobby life in half, I hope you got what you wanted out of it.

When I get swung at by a guy holding a real sword, or when I find a group that does fighting to submission, I'll put on real armor.

Till then, I'm going to wear what's comfortable and effective.

Regards

Jonathan Blackbow

[Mord]

You know, it's interesting. the period enthusiasts wax enthusiastic about the "fact" that they "get to exist like they did back then."

People, don't kid yourselves. It wasn't some romanticized thing like what we do. your life isn't on the line here. You're not fighting for a damn thing other than fun.

Yes, there are people out there who make armor for a living, or because it's fun to them. But the ones who do it professionally? Most of them have ways to bend the metal that don't involve wearing their elbows out with a hammer for hours on end. They've moved to hydraulic hammers. They, like me, fell out of love with the idea of destroying their physiques for a game and went to the most reasonable alternative.

Remember Karate Kid II? Daniel and Miyagi are at the airport on Okinawa. Daniel sees the picture of the guy breaking the tree trunk with his hand. Looks at Miyagi. Asks if he can do that. Miyagi says, "don't know. Never been attacked by tree."

You guys that want to wear steel, knock yourselves out. When that much weight screws up your joints and cuts your active hobby life in half, I hope you got what you wanted out of it.

When I get swung at by a guy holding a real sword, or when I find a group that does fighting to submission, I'll put on real armor.

Till then, I'm going to wear what's comfortable and effective.

Regards

Jonathan Blackbow

I've worn plastic, leather, and steel in my fighting career.

Fighting, in whatever form of protection is going to take it's toll on your joints and the rest of your body, even if you take care of yourself.

Fighting, in whatever form of protection is hot because it's a physical activity in protective gear. Plastic and (thick) leather are insulators: they help keep the heat in. Steel isn't an insulator, but it sure doesn't allow the body to cool itself, and in cooler and cold envirnoments, the metal actually takes heat away from the body. Heat is problem becuase the requirements of the game do not let the body cool efficiently.

The best thing about steel, in my experience, is it's protective qualities.

The problems with steel is A. cutting it, B. shaping it, and C. keeping it in repair. All these "processes" take time, tools, and considerable skill, all of which, I don't have.

Mord.

[white mountain armoury]

I am certainly not one to speak for Leo, but I dont think he was speaking down at all to people who do not wear plate as Leo wears plate sometimes, mail sometimes, both together sometimes.
Its about understanding the warrior class and trying to get a possible feel for what it must have been like.
Many people will state that they are a saxon or something similar and would not wear heavy armour.
What would the saxon/viking warrior elite wear? A helm and hauberk to start.
The hauberk not only serves as protection but it is an outward symbol of ones station.
The warrior elite of any culture had material items needed to maintain their position in that culture.
To choose to avoid these items is to choose to avoid a certain level of experience
In regards to the aching joints and wear and tear, the soaking sweat of a days hard fighting has been referred to as "the bath of honor"
It is part of the experience, same as the ritual of arming ones self, or looking through a 1/2 in eyeslot in a visor.
I have right arm injuries at the hand, wrist elbow and shoulder. I have had to change how I fight, my medieval counterpart would have to likely do the same if he had the same injury issues.
All of these things add up to an certain level of experience.
Much of it goes missing when one puts on some sports equipment and a "tabbard"
The SCA is a big umbrella and there is obviously room under it for the mail clad huscarl and the plate covered 14th cent man at arms, and room for the guy in cleats, hockey pads and a tabbard.
My intrests are more in line with the first 2, they are the folks I seek out on and off the field.
If someone expresses to me that they want to move out of their cleats and hockey gear I lend a hand.

[Leo Medii]

You guys that want to wear steel, knock yourselves out. When that much weight screws up your joints and cuts your active hobby life in half, I hope you got what you wanted out of it.

I'm OK with that. Also, I have the opposite opinion. When I watch people who wear minimal armor limping and hobbling around from taking rattan shots I wonder how they will look in 10 years.

And, I must apologize to you Edmund. I did paint with too broad a brush. I lumped those folks who try very hard to have a good appearnace in early period, and those who use light armor for health reasons but still look excellent in with those who wear plastic and minimal armor for the sole reason because you don't have to wear armor in the SCA sport system. My issue is with those who could look better, but don't and don't care, and those who have figured out that they can play the system to enhance performance at the sacrifice of honoring the spirit of what "historical" equivilents of thier time period did and wore.

I owe you an apology, I'll give it in person this Saturday at the Belted practice!

[Edmund of Hertford]

My issue is with those who could look better, but don't and don't care, and those who have figured out that they can play the system to enhance performance at the sacrifice of honoring the spirit of what "historical" equivilents of thier time period did and wore.

I owe you an apology, I'll give it in person this Saturday at the Belted practice!

I will gladly accept your apology Saturday : ) (Bastard Sword, Great Sword, or Pole Axe?)

And I agree with your statement here. I would further add that (at least in my mind) being as close to authentic as possible is among the nobleist of goals, honest hard effort is even higher. I greatly respect the work of those study, learn and create in an effort to do it right, even if that is on a college student budget. As with prowess, peereage, etc, the process and effort is as important (if not moreso) than the result.

[Leo Medii]

I will gladly accept your apology Saturday : ) (Bastard Sword, Great Sword, or Pole Axe?)

Ah ha! THAT kind of apology!

Sounds like fun! I'll bring all of them.

[Edwin]

I wore leather lamellar, then aluminum, and now stainless steel.

The steel is by far my favorite.
1. It is more comfortable; the lightest weight and coolest of all of those materials.
2. It looks better.
3. It sounds like armor.

IMO, it doesn't have a con when compared to the other materials.

[BobKnight]

You know, it's interesting. the period enthusiasts wax enthusiastic about the "fact" that they "get to exist like they did back then." [Snip]

Somebody remind me, why did we wanted to dress up in plastic barrels and freon cans and bash each other over the head with a stick in the first place?

[Leo Medii]

Somebody remind me, why did we wanted to dress up in plastic barrels and freon cans and bash each other over the head with a stick in the first place?

I thought it was to try to exist like they did back then......

[white mountain armoury]

Somebody remind me, why did we wanted to dress up in plastic barrels and freon cans and bash each other over the head with a stick in the first place?

I thought it was to try to exist like they did back then......

Dude, thatz cuz u havnt tried the kool-aid

[Murdock]

"When (not if) someone pushes himself to do both, I will be awestruck. It will happen. "

Thorvald the Golden

Rhys

Camric

it already happens

pay better attention

[Josh W]

What we gain when we wear steel armour: Awesome.

What we lose: Money.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Be who you want to be. Wear what you want to wear.
Do not disparage others if they make different choices, although to paraphrase the Anvil of Virtue - "a man in rags and rusted junk is not to be admired as a man-at-arms".

But never, never, blame your failures on the field on your equipment. Your equipment is yours. Your failure is it's failure. The rules of the list are clear, and if you choose to handicap yourself in any way, be aware of what you are doing.

[olaf haraldson]

I gain nothing. I lose nothing. I used to think I did... but I have slowly gotten better.

I fight how I do because i enjoy it. I assume others do the same. Therefore, I gain nothing.

I am as fast and mobile as my armour lets me be. So is anyone else. Therefore i lose nothing.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Being my own armourer, I have had an interesting journey into my kit. With each piece I make and each upgrade done, I strive to become more and more accurate to what was worn then.

When I make a piece and wear it and there is a hinderance to my fighting, I wonder what I did wrong in the making of the piece. What did I do in its shape or manufacture to make it not operate as it should.

Properly made, properly fitting armour should only limit you 10-15%.

My personal thoughts are that I will strive to fight as they did or I wont fight. I am not in it for sport fighting. Some are and more power to em. That is not what the game is for me.

I have to say that one of my favorite parts is going to an event and having someone say "Nice kit."

[Dafydd]

I went the "lightweight stuff kept decently hidden for sportfighting" route long ago. It helped me accomplish what I wanted (or in the case of Crown tourneys, thought I wanted: I hated being King...). I had good success on the"tourney circuit." As it happens, much of that gear was reasonably realistic (buffcoat and lobstertail, etc...), but there were certainly plenty of compromises. Plastic elbows under a shirt...that sort of thing.

Nowadays, I'm much more concerned with approaching this game as a re-creative martial art (although I like to think I was never willing to adopt flagrantly unrealistic techniques for the sake of sportfighting success). As such, I've been moving inexorably towards full plate for my now early-15th Century persona.

However, it's mostly all spring steel. I don't think that greatly (if at all) compromises the realism, though...at least in terms of weight. It's my understanding that much of the combat armor in-period was not as thick as the 14 and 16 gauge mild steel we often use for heavy-legal armor. The spring steel stuff might be lighter than period harness...but not by the margin it has over modern mild steel SCA combat gear.

And although I don't fight tournaments with the same passion I did in my 20s, it's still nice to think of wearing the exact same harness for that as I do for war!

I have to get hold of Stonekeep...still have a couple things to order!

[Malcolmthebold]

ten years of playing has taken me from a plastic coat of plates (first couple of years) to an alum kit in period looking shapes, (last 6 years) to a near period steel kit complete with a 25 lb hauberk. (under construction by my own hand)

the evolution of my kit and my fighting ability have seemed to take different paths. i have improved my fighting because i wanted to be a better fighter. i have improved my kit because when i started i had an image in my head of how i wanted to look, and lacked the means to get there. money is still short but i now budget better. as i have changed my kit i have given little thought to "how will this allow me to fight better or worse?" a friend of ours has always said ,"you can't fight your opponent if you are fighting your armour." he wears very sport type kits with plastic alum and velcro. my knight has always held to the thought that armour is generally uncomfortable, and the preferable option is to become comfortable in whatever armour you have. my thought seem to be wandering.

[Aaron]

I'm a goofball and my application to be the Armour Archive's Village Idiot is still pending.

I LIKE fighting in a full rig, steel (stainless...I sweat, a lot) with mail. I'm a trifle slower...because I'm already quite slow.

But, every time I put on the armour, I have a good time. I enjoy the feel and weight of the steel. I enjoy the looks and double-takes I get. I enjoy that feeling that I'm a lord of England, dressed in his armour, ready to have a fun time fighting friends at a tournament with pollaxes or polehammers or spears...while the serfs work on getting a nice dinner on the table for my family and I.

I am working on a ultra-light sword-and-buckler kit, but that's for flying places for work and maybe getting a bout in. I would not consider it unless the event merited it (say, it's sword-and-buckler, etc...).


His name will be Hubert, the Humerous Huchback Hermit from Hampshire.



-Aaron

[Bob H]

I will gladly accept your apology Saturday : ) (Bastard Sword, Great Sword, or Pole Axe?)

Ah ha! THAT kind of apology!

Sounds like fun! I'll bring all of them.

Good show, both of you! It's THIS type of fun that's made me miss the SCA.

I got too wrapped up in "this buckle is a little wrong, there's too many strands in this lacing, I simply must get the galvanized zinc layer off these hidden plates" ad infinitum. Along the way I too often forgot to have fun. I just hope I wasn't a misery to those around me, and I'm going to do much better this time. If any of you catch me not having fun, feel free to call me on it. Please.

[knitebee]

When I make a piece and wear it and there is a hinderance to my fighting, I wonder what I did wrong in the making of the piece. What did I do in its shape or manufacture to make it not operate as it should.

Properly made, properly fitting armour should only limit you 10-15%.

My personal thoughts are that I will strive to fight as they did or I wont fight. I am not in it for sport fighting. Some are and more power to em. That is not what the game is for me.

I have to say that one of my favorite parts is going to an event and having someone say "Nice kit."

...every time I put on the armour, I have a good time. I enjoy the feel and weight of the steel. I enjoy the looks and double-takes I get. I enjoy that feeling that I'm a lord of England, dressed in his armour, ready to have a fun time fighting friends at a tournament with pollaxes or polehammers or spears...while the serfs work on getting a nice dinner on the table for my family and I. -Aaron

Not much to add beyond those two statements, other than the feeling when people walk past the knights and dukes to come talk to you because of your kit. Many watching tournies cann't remember who won or lost but they remember those with stand out armour.

[Josh W]

Many watching tournies cann't remember who won or lost but they remember those with stand out armour.

This has been my experience at demos, too.

[Louis de Leon]

a friend of ours has always said ,"you can't fight your opponent if you are fighting your armour."

I agree with your friend, but drew different conclusions.

Yes - having to fight two fights at once is lousy. Fighting your armour sucks. But - medievals knew about this stuff. They invented it. They fought in it. They lived in it. Their lives depended on it. They spent hundreds of years refining it and they weren't idiots. In short, do what they do - they were the experts.

I have found that the more closely I copy what they did, the better off I am.

I used clunky plastic hockey stuff originally. Sucked. Moved to stainless. It was better, but heavy. Moved to thinner spring steel. Even better yet. Suspension liner in my helmet rather than blue foam. Much better.

As I continue to move closer to historic forms, methods, metals, and thicknesses the happier I am. I move better, am less hot, get less bruises - you name it.

Trust your ancestors.

[Edmund of Hertford]

But - medievals knew about this stuff. They invented it. They fought in it. They lived in it. Their lives depended on it. They spent hundreds of years refining it and they weren't idiots. In short, do what they do - they were the experts.

I have found that the more closely I copy what they did, the better off I am.

Trust your ancestors.

This statement is so true. I have helped a bunch of folks try to make armor (mostly newbie to mid level type stuff) who were trying to invent the wheel. I showed them how to copy professionals (the original guys) and they have always been happy with the results.

[blackbow]

Up to a point I'll agree but they didn't have access to the stuff we do. Trust me, if there'd been a way to make armor out of graphite back then, they'd have done it. If they'd had aluminum or titanium back then, all their armor would have been made out of it.

It's an intriguing argument but really, every time there's been a better way to do stuff, it quickly becomes the standard. Bone to wood to stone to copper to bronze to brass to iron to steel.

...to aluminum to titanium to ...???

I'm sure that one reason chainmail fell out of fashion is because it was time consuming and expensive, and it was a lot easier to simply make steel plates. And oh yeah, it was heavy as all get out.

Blackbow

But - medievals knew about this stuff. They invented it. They fought in it. They lived in it. Their lives depended on it. They spent hundreds of years refining it and they weren't idiots. In short, do what they do - they were the experts.

I have found that the more closely I copy what they did, the better off I am.

Trust your ancestors.

This statement is so true. I have helped a bunch of folks try to make armor (mostly newbie to mid level type stuff) who were trying to invent the wheel. I showed them how to copy professionals (the original guys) and they have always been happy with the results.