Stabbing question.

Leopold der Wolf · Post by **Leopold der Wolf** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:52 pm

Had a guy tell me that a sword stab to the side/top of the helm is not considered a kill. Only face and body.

Is that true? I've heard in some fights you cant stab spears to the side of the head..but I thought that was just a safety thing.

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:03 pm

Only in a few kingdoms. In most of the SCA thrusts on the side or top of the head are good, but must be full force, unlike a face thrust that is lighter.

I'm not sure, but I think Meridies may be one of the no head thrust kingdoms...check with your local Marshal.

NeeSayer · Post by **NeeSayer** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:12 pm

As far as i have ever heard (in my limited experience) is that face thrusts are touch, with side and top being full.

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:37 pm

No thrusts to the side, top, or back of the head count in Trimaris.

Thor.
KEM
Trimaris

Leopold der Wolf · Post by **Leopold der Wolf** » Fri May 08, 2009 11:47 pm

Thats an unusual rule to me. What happens if you get hit with a butt spike, or the back spike of an axe. Guess its a mass weapon hit then?

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Sat May 09, 2009 6:37 am

Leopold -- in Meridies, stabs to the top, back or sides of the helmet don't count -- only the face. And then, only positive contact is needed.

The back spike of an axe is part of the weapon's striking surface, so it counts the same as being whacked with the front blade of the axe. The butt spike is a thrusting tip, so the stabbing rules apply there.

Hey, maybe I'll see you at Tourney of the Foxes, if I can make it up!

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:32 pm

In Atlantia, "Thrusts to the head, outside of the face, are not telling blows and need not be counted. "

This appears in para. 3.6.1.4.5 of The Policies of the Great Officers of Atlantia.

Koredono · Post by **Koredono** » Sat May 09, 2009 3:18 pm

Blaine de Navarre wrote:Only in a few kingdoms. In most of the SCA thrusts on the side or top of the head are good, but must be full force, unlike a face thrust that is lighter.

Not accurate, though I can see how it could be inferred from the viewpoint of someone with limited interkingdom (esp inter*regional*) experience (i.e. I think all of the kingdoms that border Caid, and maybe even all the kingdoms that border them, use the same convention).

A couple of years ago, as part of other relevant data-gathering, the KEMs were asked by the SEM to answer some yes-or-no questions regarding the fighting conventions in their kingdoms, and this was one of them; more than half of the kingdoms used (some variant of) the "thrusts to other parts of the head than the face are not to be taken" convention (for varying reasons), and because most of the larger (fighting population) kingdoms fell into that group, a significant majority of SCA fighters fight under those rules. I suppose that some kingdoms may have changed their conventions, but given how tradition-driven we are, I don't think that enough have done so

It does happen that kingdoms within given regions tend to have similar rules, since there's more interkingdom contact there; for those in North America, the split is mostly east-west with the diving line being the Mississippi (give or take).

Blaine de Navarre wrote:I'm not sure, but I think Meridies may be one of the no head thrust kingdoms...check with your local Marshal.

Given everything else I know about Meridien combat, and that that's what's done at Gulf Wars, I'd be very surprised if they didn't use that convention.

Leopold der Wolf · Post by **Leopold der Wolf** » Sat May 09, 2009 5:46 pm

Thanks all!

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Mon May 11, 2009 12:08 am

The west coast kingdoms, An Tir, West, CAID all allow full head thrust targeting. Atenveldt I am almost certain does as well. Outlands and Artemesia I think probably use this convention - at least the Outlands never mentions their conventions are different at their yearly Prize tournament at Estrella.

Ansterorra and Calontir I would guess no, and everything East of their is definitely a no either by convention or rule (when I left the East in 2002, this was NOT in the rules, without a rather bizarre interpretation on the lines of "not expressly allowed is forbidden" - but irrelevant, because by convention they certainly are not taken.

I actually find the SCA head/face targeting rules sort of dopey. No where else do we worry about what people were actually wearing and penetration thereof? I also think "calibrating lighter to the face" is difficult. Calibration is already subjective, social and complicated, why add an extra layer of "well it was in the face". It would be logical in a helms-as-worn ruleset, but this is very rarely used - because it is counter the spirit of the SCA society rules which basically ignore what you are wearing beyond saying the minimum safety requirements (and I am fine with that).

I have a personal theory that is difficult to verify - and that is that in kingdoms where face thrusts are very light and side-thrusts are not delivered, chin straps are generally (not always) inadequate. Your helm should basically NEVER contact your face unless a fiberglass spear is shot out of a cannon at you. That's just common sense. It is not difficult to design, construct, and maintain such a "suspension" chin strap - although it often requires drilling 2 holes in each side of your helm.

/rant