WTB Welded SS/Ti Haubergeon

[Iain (Bunny) Ruadh]

Have been waiting for 2+ years for a set of Meister Knutt's Ti ... $ sitting drawing interest. Getting closer and closer to Pennsic and the full season ...
anybody else able to provide a haubergeon out of Ti for a 6' 2", 240# guy with 56" relaxed chest (60" with gambeson and flexed). Would prefer something 9mm inner and SS or Ti welded or rivetted to go with an SCA 14th SCA transitional hard kit. If someone has something that fits this bill please post up here ... if I don't jump on it, I know there a few others on this same order that have sitting for 2+ years with no delivery/production that would be interested. Other ideas/alternatives/suggestions welcomed as well ...

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

PM Sent on possible lead.

[Johannes]

I had Knut "fix" a couple TI shirts I had been dragging around for him by making them big enough to fit me (they were tiny). We sold one at Gulf Wars, but I have at least one of them left. They are in this ballpark of size, I just don't have a clue how to tell *exactly* what size they are.

Both shirts are sold

[Sigurd of Jorvik]

What would the price be and how big is the shirt?

[Johannes]

I do still have two of them.

If I lay them on a table and measure straight across beneath the arms, one is 27" (which should mean 54" chest) and the other is 29" which should be a 58" chest.

The 58 incher has a copper dagged edge at the sleeves and hem.

Prices for them are $2200 for the copper edged 58", $2000 for the 54"

Both are short sleeved, and about knee length on me at 5'9"

I will be in NYC for the next week, but will try to check back here for questions when I can.

[Duke Icefalcon]

We will have the blackened flat ring riveted stainless shirts in stock in a few weeks.

They will run around $995.

We will also have the matching aventails, chausses, coifs, etc.

www.icefalcon.com

Cheers!

Ice

[Iain (Bunny) Ruadh]

I'd like to put in dibs on the 58" one if possible.

[Johannes]

There is someone coming to look at it this week while I am gone. If he doesn't buy it, it's held for you.

[Balin D'Acier]

Were the 54" somewhere between 4-8" smaller, I'd be all over that. Really wish there was an armorer somewhere willing to filling the Ti niche, but there's practically no one doing it these days it seems.

[Duke Uther]

I would take the small shirt, or would take the bigger if things fall threw. Might even take both if possable

Thanks

Uther

[Iain (Bunny) Ruadh]

hee hee .. hopefully just the smaller .. standing by with the finger on the 'button' for the larger one. If they'd only share the name of the prospective buyer .. my winged monkeys would take care of 'em and their lil' dog too!

[seanjohnson1]

re you talking about titanium welded mail?

please clarify this is interesting me ....

[Iain (Bunny) Ruadh]

Yes. Ti welded, flat rings.

[seanjohnson1]

that thing must stop just about any cut...

wow if either is still available please PM
me! thanks

the thought seems irresistable...

[white mountain armoury]

that thing must stop just about any cut...

wow if either is still available please PM
me! thanks

the thought seems irresistable...

It would, although the stainless shirts are stronger.
Mine is stainless, I wish I could trade up to Ti as the deteriorated disks in my back are starting to complain

[Baron Logan]

I'm always a little surprised that nobody has successfully taken up the slack on this part of the market. With so many people wanting to throw 2k at Knuut you'd think he or someone would at least be updating a website or something.

[Cisco]

I imagine that the work wouldn't be worth it.

Sure, you could make it and sell it to someone like Duke Icefalcon to and hope it sells (or leave as a commission) but I imagine the market won't actually support it.

The market will talk about supporting it, and people will say, "Yeah I'd buy one," but they wouldn't and you'd be left waiting for someone to buy.

It'll eventually sell and will probably last forever, but only as a hobby would it be worth it and I don't think that many people want to spend that much time on a hobby.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Knuute does a pretty brisk business in Ti aventails (ca. $300).
An intrepid Ti welder could buy aventails or even welded cloth from Knuut and form shirts out of it more or less on demand.

If he didn't get orders, he could move the Aventials individually. Also, Ti bulk prices are going up, so it's like an investment.

It would require (in addition to chainmail tailoring and welding skills) a fair amount of capital investment.

I just bought on spec a 12"x14" welded Ti maille scrap from Ring Lord just to see if it would make decent arm/gauntlet covers. The ring size is quite small however (4.4mm)

[Jestyr]

I imagine that the work wouldn't be worth it.

Sure, you could make it and sell it to someone like Duke Icefalcon to and hope it sells (or leave as a commission) but I imagine the market won't actually support it.

The market will talk about supporting it, and people will say, "Yeah I'd buy one," but they wouldn't and you'd be left waiting for someone to buy.

It'll eventually sell and will probably last forever, but only as a hobby would it be worth it and I don't think that many people want to spend that much time on a hobby.

I agree.

Chainmail does not offer any benefit to our game other than looking good. It is effectively a two thousand dollar heavy tunic.

At least with stainless spring steel, the armour you are buying is the armour that is protecting you.

[Sigurd of Jorvik]

I respectfully disagree, as would any fighter who wears maille and has fought in it. While spring steel plate probably protects against blows a lot better, maille will absorb a lot of the blow.

[Baron Logan]

Thats like saying there is no reason to ever buy anything other than a spun top helm.

There is a market out there for things like Ti Shirts and Ugo helmets. That market just isn't for 95% of the SCA.

[Jestyr]

Okay... I will modify my statement a bit...

First, I retract my statement about chainmail offering no protection. That said, a chainmail shirt alone doesn't pass armour inspection for a reason.

Second, obviously there is a market for Ti haubergeons and hauberks.

What Cisco meant (I think), and what I agree with, is that the cost is prohibitively expensive reducing the available marketplace. Since Ti chainmail is really geared for modern medieval combat without a direct need for historical accuracy, it is primarily geared toward the SCA. As the SCA, in general, is not a particularly wealthy group, and the number of people that choose to wear chainmail is pretty small to begin with, the marketplace shrinks further. Further, and I could be very wrong here, but I would imagine the margins for chainmail are pretty low (as compared to another retail product). So, if you have a fairly small marketplace, and relatively small margins given your outlay of dollars, it seems a less than ideal business model UNLESS you are someone like IceFalcon, or another "large" armourer who can supplement that business with other like products.

So, at least with a full suit of stainless spring steel, you won't need EXTRA armour to pass marshal inspection.

[Jestyr]

Thats like saying there is no reason to ever buy anything other than a spun top helm.

There is a market out there for things like Ti Shirts and Ugo helmets. That market just isn't for 95% of the SCA.

I think that is somewhat of an unfair analogy.

Every fighter NEEDS a helmet. Many choose to upgrade to a much nicer helm. Further, the jump from a spun top to a nice stainless helm is $100 to about $500 (plus). $400 and 500% increase

Not every fighter NEEDS a chainmail shirt. In fact, a very small percentage wear one. From that small percentage, some choose to upgrade from butted. The initial jump from butted mail to Ti is $100 to $2000. $1900 and 2000% increase.

That is a sizable difference in cost and need.

[white mountain armoury]

I see more and more maile every year.
You can buy a rivited maile shirt for 300.00 or there abouts.
Of the 12 fighters in my household I think only 2 do not wear maile shirts and its simply because they are large fellows who want welded stainless and its difficult to find.
While Ti may not be an authentic material it looks more authentic than stainless maile or galvanized maile.
I get more requests for my helmets with mail than I do for those without.
Those SCA fighters who are more authenticly minded do buy maile as well as belt fittings and turnshoes and similar items the less authenticly minded avoid.
IMHO there are more folks wanting welded flatwire maile than Knuut can supply.
I have had folks offer to buy my maile shirt right of my back.

[Jestyr]

I stand corrected and now offer to shrink back into my hole.

[white mountain armoury]

I stand corrected and now offer to shrink back into my hole.

No shrinking holes needed
I do think its a regional or "cult" type of thing, some folks are drawn to it some are not.
I think alot of folks think back to the buttend maile days when if it was goin to hold up it needed to be 12 ga and as a result weighed 50 lbs.
My first maile shirt weighed 47 lbs, I wore it in combat once and likely ended up an inch shorter.

[Thorstenn]

I completely agree. I have wanted a Ti shirt for some time. When I had the money and a Ti shirt was 1200$$$ my wife found her dream helmet so I bought it in stead 6 months later Ti tripled in price. I do not want to deal with mild steal maile in Florida I fight to much to let my armor dry out as it is. There is a large demand for Master Knutt's products I simple dont understand why he does not hire some help in the states and run his business instead of run it into the ground. I have a squire that can not get a hold of him at all to buy his products.

Thor.

I see more and more maile every year.
You can buy a rivited maile shirt for 300.00 or there abouts.
Of the 12 fighters in my household I think only 2 do not wear maile shirts and its simply because they are large fellows who want welded stainless and its difficult to find.
While Ti may not be an authentic material it looks more authentic than stainless maile or galvanized maile.
I get more requests for my helmets with mail than I do for those without.
Those SCA fighters who are more authenticly minded do buy maile as well as belt fittings and turnshoes and similar items the less authenticly minded avoid.
IMHO there are more folks wanting welded flatwire maile than Knuut can supply.
I have had folks offer to buy my maile shirt right of my back.

[Balin D'Acier]

Not every fighter NEEDS a chainmail shirt. In fact, a very small percentage wear one.

This makes the base assumption that everyone that does not currently wear maille does so out of choice, and if offered an acceptable option would still choose not to do so.

Some people would like to wear maille but do not do so out of weight concerns (re: fears that the maille would make them less competitive), for them TI would be a nice solution. I refer you to Sir Corby's interview in the Medieval Combat and Weapons forum where he discusses how his kit should probably include more maille to be accurate, and he laments not having picked up a TI shirt that he was offered years ago.

It would stand to reason that if a dependable armorer with a reasonable turnaround time were to start offering TI maille, you would likely see the percentage of maille wearing fighters increase.

Look at it this way. The AA is sort of a rough representation the make-up of the general body of fighters as a whole. In this thread you already have a number of fighters expressing interest in the possibilities of TI armor. If we extrapolate that to the general fighting populace, there would probably be enough interest in TI to make offering it at least somewhat lucrative.

[Baron Logan]

Yeah thats kind of what Im getting at. If someone runs a business that can't meet demand then usually another springs up to take advantage of the overflow of customers. Right now I see nothing but overflow.

[Atlanta Armory]

I imagine that the work wouldn't be worth it.

Sure, you could make it and sell it to someone like Duke Icefalcon to and hope it sells (or leave as a commission) but I imagine the market won't actually support it.

I made pretty good money (for a kid in high school) selling them on my own. My problem wasn't a lack of market or not enough profit but just a lack of time and labor. I was working 12 hours a day trying to fill orders but I couldn't even fill half of them and had to stop taking orders.

I'm still not taking orders as of yet but if anyone's interested I will begin selling aventails and a shirt or two here on the archive.

-Ben

[Jestyr]

Not every fighter NEEDS a chainmail shirt. In fact, a very small percentage wear one.

This makes the base assumption that everyone that does not currently wear maille does so out of choice, and if offered an acceptable option would still choose not to do so.

Some people would like to wear maille but do not do so out of weight concerns (re: fears that the maille would make them less competitive), for them TI would be a nice solution. I refer you to Sir Corby's interview in the Medieval Combat and Weapons forum where he discusses how his kit should probably include more maille to be accurate, and he laments not having picked up a TI shirt that he was offered years ago.

It would stand to reason that if a dependable armorer with a reasonable turnaround time were to start offering TI maille, you would likely see the percentage of maille wearing fighters increase.

Look at it this way. The AA is sort of a rough representation the make-up of the general body of fighters as a whole. In this thread you already have a number of fighters expressing interest in the possibilities of TI armor. If we extrapolate that to the general fighting populace, there would probably be enough interest in TI to make offering it at least somewhat lucrative.

I already shrunk into my hole! Shrinkage!!!

That said, I don't know if I agree with you that the AA is a rough representative of the general body of fighters as a whole. I think those here, in general, care much more about looking good with a semblance of accuracy, over the overall fighting public. I say this, of course, with no good justification other than this place has inspired me to *want* a Ti haubergeon, that I otherwise likely would not have cared about.

Jestyr shrinks back into his hole

[white mountain armoury]

I agree, i dont think the people here are an accurate representation of fighters society wide.
It would be nice if it was.

[Balin D'Acier]

I already shrunk into my hole! Shrinkage!!!

That said, I don't know if I agree with you that the AA is a rough representative of the general body of fighters as a whole. I think those here, in general, care much more about looking good with a semblance of accuracy, over the overall fighting public. I say this, of course, with no good justification other than this place has inspired me to *want* a Ti haubergeon, that I otherwise likely would not have cared about.

Jestyr shrinks back into his hole

Heh, sorry ... I was typing out my reply while WMA must have been typing out his. And I was trying to not sound hostile at all, I hope that came across.

As for the AA/body of fighter's thing, I think both you and WMA are correct about those who come here probably caring more about these types of things. What I meant in my original statement was more aimed towards the time periods people are trying to represent. As in, there are guys who are just always drawn to Plate, guys who are always drawn to leather, or lamellar or what have you. And then there are guys who are drawn to the Chain look, but might not be wearing it (even though they want to) due to factors of weight, or comfort, or price, or not wanting to deal with Mild steel chain maintenance or what have you. TI might solve a number of those issues.

[white mountain armoury]

Another thought, some language in this thread makes it sould like Knuut does not want to meet demands.
He has an actual job he goes to. Maile is his part time buisness.
I would think he might like to have a life outside of work both full and part time, I know Id like one.
I do this full time and cant even begin to meet the needs of my customers.
I wish I could build for everyone who wants a hat from me.
People always say just hire some help.
Its not that easy.
I am very very fussy, and very timely in my turnaround.
I have yet to have someone in my shop who can fully appreciate these 2 things.

[Thorstenn]

While I would agree under normal circumstances. Knutt gets a lot of stuff made in Vietnam ( I think its his wife's family's business???) I could be wrong. I can understand the custom shirts being difficult but not aventails witch could be done by just about anybody.
Adam, you did not make the plates I bought from you (Lamella) nor does Knutt make every weld. He is simple hard to get a hold of most of the time.
Unlike Knutt, I recommend your work to everybody I know.
The best way to get any of Knutt's work is to buy it from Windrose.

Thor.

Another thought, some language in this thread makes it sould like Knuut does not want to meet demands.
He has an actual job he goes to. Maile is his part time buisness.
I would think he might like to have a life outside of work both full and part time, I know Id like one.
I do this full time and cant even begin to meet the needs of my customers.
I wish I could build for everyone who wants a hat from me.
People always say just hire some help.
Its not that easy.
I am very very fussy, and very timely in my turnaround.
I have yet to have someone in my shop who can fully appreciate these 2 things.