Avoiding Wrist Injury

Dino · Post by **Dino** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:11 pm

Does anyone know of a few techniques to help avoid wrist injury because of the repetitve nature of blow throwing?

I also do alot of work with computers (typing and mouse use).

Does anyone have any good ideas for preventing wrist injury while being an SCA fighter and working with computers?

Does Weight/Length of weapon contribute?

I have been using a long sword 39" with a metal bar Basket hilt (only about 3 months). I'm going to goto a shorter 33" thrusting tip, with a plastic basket hilt to check that out.

I also just got a leather halfgaunt, strong contruction. Weighs a bit less than the SS one I was using.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:26 pm

Usualy wrist injury is from bad mechanics or poor fitting armour.
addressing this and you should be set.

Leopold der Wolf · Post by **Leopold der Wolf** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:06 pm

Dont throw retiques. As seductively cool as they look. If you miss....

Roland Ansbacher · Post by **Roland Ansbacher** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:21 pm

I agree with losthelm, bad mechanics are a significant factor in injuries. There are many ways to address this issue, the simplest being don't do thinkgs that might cause the injury. As we're fighting in the SCA, that throws that one out.

So we need to find out what "good body mechanics" actually are. What follows is my opinion and theory, your own mileage may very. I am not a doctor, sports medicine guru, or a physical therapist, though I have consulted at one time or another will all three. In doing so I discovered there are many ideas, many opinions, and no one idea covers all sports or injuries. This one seems to work for me.

To begin with, good body mechanics should allow to accomplish the intended movement in the most efficient motion with the least amount of stress to the body. Anything you do causes stress to the muscles and bones, you just have to find a way to minimize it.

To keep this from getting too long winded, I'll just cover wrist movement. Ideally, just prior to the moment of impact, there should be no wrist movement. In fact, through out the entirety of the shot, there should be as little movement from the wrist as possible.

Look at your wrist muscles. Compared to the forearm they are pretty small, as the forearm is to the bicep, bicep to the shoulder, and so on. So the further away from the torso, the muscles tend to get smaller and weaker. Each joint is also weaker the the one preceding it. In terms of power generation, the larger muscles are better at moving small weights (such as a sword) then the smaller muscles. So by using your wrist as the primary muscles for throwing a shot, you are putting greater strain on the wrist then you would if your upper arm or torso was the primary muscle group.

In my ideal shot, the wrist and the arm move the sword into the position I need it to be, and then I "lock" the muscles in position. (I really can't think of a better term) While I am doing that, my feet and body are in motion, providing the speed and power to the strike. At the moment of impact, my arm from the shoulder down is frozen relative to my body, while my body twists to provide all the force needed.

To make a long story short, use your wrist and arm as much as possible to place your sword in the right position for a strike, and use the torsion (twisting) of your body and your footwork for power generation and speed. You may not be able to throw some of the more exotic shots as quickly at first, if at all, but most shots will be far faster, and your muscles and joints will be in much better shape in the long run.

I hope that made some sort of sense... I tend to ramble.

Sir Roland Ansbacher

Dino · Post by **Dino** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:54 pm

Thankyou Sir Roland, I shall analyse my shots and see how much wrist movement I put into it and attempt to eliminate it as much as possible.

Also what is a retique shot? I'm not familiar with the terminology.

- cancel that I found it - a reverse wrist shot... no I don't do those, they just seem foolish (as in injury promoting).

Columb · Post by **Columb** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:11 am

Hi Tharasiph,

You might want to discuss this with Sir Andre - he has had wrist issues for years and might have some good advice for you.

My personal comment is that I see a lot of your blows coming from the wrist and forearm, without enough body in the shot.

One blow in particular, which you throw a lot, which you can see at 3:09 in this video from the Terra Nova tourney:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMMfib3T9ME

is an off-side head-shot that is coming in, and recovering flat, only being edge on due to wrist action just before impact. Any time you are moving the sword in the direction of a flat side, rather than back or front edge, you're removing all the big muscles from the equation, leaving the wrist a lot of work to do.

You've improved that technique in the months since that tourney, but I still see that "sideways" movement of the sword in your game, and I'd lay a lot of the blame there.

In the mean-time, swapping to a lighter, shorter sword should reduce your re-injury rate until you figure out what is wrong.

Anyway, that's my guess

Columb

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:31 am

Take up polearm, spear and sword-and-buckler. My wrists have had problems from years of Judo (started when I was six) and genetics.

I find throwing from behind a heater shield will hurt my wrists. Doing sword and buckler or some sort of center-grip shield will not hurt my wrists.

You may be different though.

-Aaron

hrolf · Post by **hrolf** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:21 am

http://www.amazon.com/Dynaflex-Pro-Gyro-Wrist-Exerciser/dp/B0001ANB00

DukeAvery · Post by **DukeAvery** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:34 am

Some quick musings on top of the other fine suggestions here;

Mobility and posture exercises are much more important than is generally realized. I recommend the book "Pain Free" by Pete Egoscue. The shoulder exercises alone helped reduce my wrist problems.

Next, learn some deep wrist stretches. I now do some serious convolutions of my wrists and arms on a daily basis. I pick up the moves from martial arts instructors (a Kung Fu teacher was particularly helpful).

Next, although most of us shouldn't be throwing our shots with our arms, you need strong arms. Build them up. There's no such thing as a scrawny armed swordsmen (although you don't need to be massively muscles either). You're dealing with powerful forces however and your body needs to be properly conditioned to safely deliver it.

Good form can be learned from Duke Paul's resources on this site. It is hard, be diligent. If you don't know where to start I recommend learning the skating and basic snap/block drills. When you can combine these motions you are starting to get somewhere.

If you are in pain learn how to treat it - I use ice, tiger balm, and ibu profen (sometimes).

Doing any of these well will require research and the seeking out of instructors. Together, it is working for me. It is tempting to cut corners but I advise against it.

Regards,

Avery

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:40 am

Learn to throw "Bellatrix" style. Unlike many others in the SCA, Duke Paul's shots are mostly thrown without breaking the wrist much.

If you can, try to get with him at Pennsic or some other event. Second best is to get it from his web site.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:14 pm

Option 1-

Stop throwing wraps.

Option 2

Use the sword like a sword and not a whip.

Bummer is both are a couple of the most effective techniques for SCA style combat.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:28 pm

I have bad wrists - they are skinny and weak and have gotten cracked a few times and never been quite right since (at least the right one, the left one is not too bad)

I use a boxer "wrist wrap" on my wrist (even doing slow work) - athletic tape works too, but more of a pain to take off - and a very fat sword handle with a tennis racket grip.

In general, as others have said, use bigger muscles for power, use a more tip-heavy sword (overall weight probably not as important)

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:29 pm

The muscles in the wrist can be strengthened with a couple of simple excercises.

Wrap a rope around a sword diameter dowel and attach the other end to a weight. Hold the dowel on either side of the rope with both hands. lift the weight by wrapping the cord around the dowel. lower it slowly by un wrapping. increase the weight as you are able.

Get a hammer. hold it like a sword and move the hammer with only your wrist while keeping you arm still. do this untill you hate your life. Get a bigger hammer.

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:47 pm

Having had a vary active life and being a bit of a risk taker, I've got my share of injuries and little chronic joint pain issues.

I use a lighter sword with better technique. I balance the sword about four inches in front of the hilt, which gives it a much livelier feel than a tip heavy sword. Using a lighter sword is not a problem if using the body to power the blow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib4WZVqlnXo This video shows a couple of really good wrist exercises that are outside the box.

I don't throw wraps unless my biomechanics are optimal from the position I'm in. I don't do wrist wrenching things like rotiques or moulinets very often.

Keep your joints in optimal position: shoulder behind elbow, elbow behind wrist. If any one of those gets out of alignment, you will hurt yourself. If you hurt yourself, don't push through the pain. Pay attention to pain in your joints.

Remember to warm up before fighting. This does not mean static stretching. This means to get the blood flowing to the muscles and the sinovial fluid flowing in the joints.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:49 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:The muscles in the wrist can be strengthened with a couple of simple excercises.

Wrap a rope around a sword diameter dowel and attach the other end to a weight. Hold the dowel on either side of the rope with both hands. lift the weight by wrapping the cord around the dowel. lower it slowly by un wrapping. increase the weight as you are able.

When you do this one, hold the dowel with palms down for a cycle, then palms up for a cycle, then grab it on the ends for a cycle.

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:52 pm

There used to be a motorcycle helmet poster that said "If you have a $10 head, wear a $10 helmet."

The same goes for your hands.

It doesn't matter whether you are talking guns, or armor, buy the best QUALITY piece you can afford. Price is not the same as quality.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Kilkenny wrote:
Nissan Maxima wrote:The muscles in the wrist can be strengthened with a couple of simple excercises.

Wrap a rope around a sword diameter dowel and attach the other end to a weight. Hold the dowel on either side of the rope with both hands. lift the weight by wrapping the cord around the dowel. lower it slowly by un wrapping. increase the weight as you are able.

When you do this one, hold the dowel with palms down for a cycle, then palms up for a cycle, then grab it on the ends for a cycle.

Thanks. I'll add that to my routine.

Thats the other thing. Joint strength excercise should be part of your routine excercise regimen.

Dino · Post by **Dino** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:17 am

Well I go away for a day or so and get many more awesome responses..

Thanks.

I'll go through eveything here and see was is practical for me to use.

Just what I was looking for all.

Thanks Columb, I also think you like that video cos you won.

Columb · Post by **Columb** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:33 am

Tharasiph wrote:Thanks Columb, I also think you like that video cos you won.

Actually I hate that video, because I only won after you hit me with three light blows to the head. I've been wishing ever since that I asked for a re-fight.

But it was the only one I could find with clear examples of what I was talking about!

I have a copy of "Pain Free", by the way, you are welcome to have a look (though you can't borrow it, I'm using it!).

Columb

Hartmann · Post by **Hartmann** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:04 pm

I submit that there safe techniques for both wraps and retiques, although both shots tend to invite bad technique.

Hard to describe in words, a few pointers:
1. Never extend any joint fully, especially the elbow.
2. Always maintain an angle between your arm and your blade so that the blade isn't parallell with the arm, especially at the moment of impact.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:22 pm

I submit that there safe techniques for both wraps and retiques, although both shots tend to invite bad technique.

I agree. However, I try to use a sword like a sword, and after trying to chop many things with a wrap shot and having the real sword do all sorts of wonky things to the target I just decided to scrap them as a bad technique. There is just too many things that can go wrong with the shot to make it something I would use and count on when using a bladed weapon.
Add to that the chance (actually likelyhood) of wrist and elbow damage and that makes it downright stupid.

My position on the "wrap shot" is well known, and I know I'm not going to change any SCA minds. I am OK with being less of an SCA fighter for not having the "wrap shot" as a mainstay of my fighting catalog. To each his own, but I wince seeing good folks I know who started SCA about the same time as I did with all sorts of wrist and elbow problems now.

Dino · Post by **Dino** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:33 am

I found Audax wrist exercise video to be very effective, did those exercises plus I couple I found on a Baldar video and I was able to throw shots without any discomfort, I'll definately add them to my repertoire.

Plus looking at Duke Bellatrix's site and using good snap technique reduces the power needed.

I'll see how I go this weekend. I'm still thinking of getting a wrist exercise dovalackey or using the rope/dowel exercise as well.

I'm doign fairly well with my fighting atm and I don't seem to have any problems with other parts of my body, so I think i'll pass on letting my wrists go on me.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:15 am

If you do pell-work, don't hit a hard pell like a telephone pole or a tree. Hit a soft one like a big roll of carpet or a tire.

Dino · Post by **Dino** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:51 pm

Fought in a Tourney this weekend, kept doing the wrist exercises, until I started fighting and they seemed to work brilliantly.

I even copped a shield to my wrist and while it hurt for a few seconds, i'm not feeling any after affects.