The Armour Archive

WoodKern

Very interesting Sean thanks for sharing.

WoodKern

And here is section 11 from the Cathréim Cellacháin Caisil. "IS andsin ro eirghetar Clanna Eogain gu crodha ciallmar curata ima caem-ri im Ceallachan cum an chatha. Ocus do coraighhedh gu calma ag na curaduibh bro bhadhbha bith-aluinn bhuan-aicmheil bratac Ocus sonn sesmach sith-remhar sleagh & tor ...

WoodKern

Hi Sean I had some time to go through the Cathréim Cellacháin Caisil again and found another reference to cotúns other than the two you already know about in sections 11 and 95. This one is from section 82. "Ro fergaighet na feinnid gu fir-gharg uime-sin & ro innsaighset gu garb na grang-Lochlannaig...

WoodKern

I really don't check back on this thread regularly enough. Sean, If you look back at the previous page of this thread, the two bits I quoted about Fion Mac Cumhaill's armour were taken from The Chase of Síd na mBan Finn and the Death of Finn. In case you don't know Finn and Fion are the same person....

WoodKern

Hi Sean thanks for the reply. It's funny because I remember having a discussion with someone once about this text and I argued that manifoldly could mean many folds of cloths. It's nice to see I'm not the only who thinks this.

WoodKern

Hi Sean. As you might know this is a text which has always interested me. I see that you have translated "multipliciter intersuto" as "sewed together in many layers" instead of "manifoldly sewed" as the previous translation had it. Might I ask what prompted this choice? I have long suspected that Ma...

WoodKern

It's been too long since I check back here. Looking forward to reading your article Sean.

WoodKern

I am not sure how a statement that the Scottish highlanders used linen armour in 1512 is evidence that 12th century Irish poems about legendary heroes wearing 24 or 27 tunics were really kennings for quilted armour Well the culture of the Gaelic speaking people's of Ireland and Scotland was pretty ...

WoodKern

WoodKern, the problem as I see it is that as people told and retold and invented these stories, they would reinterpret them. I think its plausible that just like us, the author of Fionn mac Cumhaill in the 15th century would say to himself 'wearing 24 or 27 tunics? that must be a poetic way to desc...

WoodKern

You could be right Jonathan. It could be that Cú Chulainn's cneslénti were some from of magical device to contain his "warp spasms" or 27 could be a magic number as Sean suggests. To add to this, It should be noted that the Táin has many strange numbers associated with Cú Chulainn. For example Cú Ch...

WoodKern

Has anyone read Pietro Monte? What does he say? I can't afford the Boydell and Brewer edition and translation until I find a full-time job. I don't know if you're aware of this Sean but there is a free translation of Monte online done by Mike Prendergast and Ingrid Sperber. Here's the link: https:/...

WoodKern

If the dating of the Caithréim Chellacháin Chaisil to 1127-1134 is correct then this would make it the earliest known reference to a variation of the word aketon. The problem is the above date might be when the work was originally written down, but the original hasn't survived to this day. All that ...

WoodKern

Great thread Sean thanks for compiling all of this info into one place. As for the entry for cotún in the eDIL. If you check out the annotation for the one time that cotún is translated as shield, you will notice that it comes from Alexander Bugge's translation of Caithréim Chellacháin Chaisil. As f...

WoodKern

Thanks for the heads up.

WoodKern

I believe that this is where the misconception originated:

http://stoccata.org/index.php/informati ... land-coutn

There is some good information in here, but also some bad.

WoodKern

Don. I think the idea of a tarred léine is a modern misconception, based on this 1512 description by John Major; "The common people of the Highland Scots rush into battle, having their body clothed with a linen garment manifoldly sewed and painted or daubed with pitch, with a covering of deerskin." ...

WoodKern

Also a good point Konstantin. Perhaps the shape of the middle to late 15th century doublet was easier to mimic with smaller plates. Whereas earlier the globose chested look was in style, so larger plates were used.

WoodKern

Tableau. Good point. Fashion might have also played a part in all of this.

WoodKern

Thanks again Sean. Unfortunately I'm still waiting to hear from the journal of arms and armour society about that Ian Eaves article.

WoodKern

As to a slit up the front and back. Most of the grave slabs don't seem to show any indication of a slit. Movement of the legs seems to have been allowed by the flare in the skirt. That said, if they were buttoned up the front, then some of the lower buttons could be left open to accommodate horse ri...

WoodKern

Hacksaw114. I forgot to mention. At least some aketons used in Ireland and the Gaelic parts of Scotland, had an outermost layer of leather. Most likely for waterproofing. I know of three 16th century references, as well as a late 12th century surviving piece of leather found in Dublin, which appears...

WoodKern

:!: http://www.iona-bed-breakfast-mull.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Iona-School-carving-and-warrior.jpg Here we see possibly the same slab (?) and this Lord of the Isles looks to represent a shortsleeved garment and a long glove both put on over the gamby, whose quilting peeps out from under, and...

WoodKern

Konstantin. I have to disagree with you on some minor points. The defence used for the neck and shoulders is not made from quilted textile, it's mail. On most of the better surviving grave slabs you can see that mail was intended. We also have written evidence speaking of mail collars or pisanes. As...

WoodKern

Hacksaw114. I remember the episode of Time Team your talking about. I would disregard the aketon they made on the show. If I remember correctly they pre quilted the material, and then stuffed cotton into the tubes. What they should have done is sandwich the cotton between layers of linen and then qu...

WoodKern

Ernst. It's definitely a hard passage to interpret. Thanks for sharing it.

WoodKern

While looking for something else entirely, I came across this early 14th century image.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5188/22543/

It looks as though the aventail is riveted directly to the helm. What do you gents think?

WoodKern

PM sent.

WoodKern

Hi Rob. I recently contacted the journal's secretary about purchasing this same volume. He forwarded my request to the man responsible for back issues. I could PM you this man's email address if you like.

WoodKern

Hi Konstantine. Thanks for the reply. Yes brigandines were well suited for infantry, as you don't need someone to help you put one on. But the same could be said of the front opening, split breasted, coats of plates (referred to as corrazinas in my OP). If brigandines were much more comfortable than...

WoodKern

Thanks once again for your help Sean. I've sent a email inquiring about the journal volume.

WoodKern

Thanks Reventlov. At least this is possible evidence of why and when a nobleman might choose to wear a brigandine instead of a plate cuirass.

WoodKern

Hi James. Thanks for the link. The prevailing opinion over there seems to be that a brigandines flexibility made it more comfortable to wear, but offered less protection than a cuirass. Makes sense.

WoodKern

Sean. Thanks for the advice so far. Unfortunately I don't speak French.

WoodKern

Perhaps I should reword my original question to avoid further confusion. 1. From the mid 15th century until the end of the 16th century, covered armours, which used a multiple plate construction (such as brigandines, jacks of plates etc.), seem to have favoured a large number of small plates, rather...

WoodKern

Sean M wrote: Or it might be that the ancestor of your brigandines is armour with the “brickwork pattern” in 14th century art.

Perhaps.

Sean M wrote: I am sure that other people can think of other possibilities!

Hopefully

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Capwell article-Mail & the Knight in Renaissance Italy P

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-13

Re: As Tough As Old Boots, Chris Dobson on Cuir Bouilli

Re: 1200-1300 Scottish aketon

Re: 1200-1300 Scottish aketon

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: 1200-1300 Scottish aketon

Re: 1200-1300 Scottish aketon

Re: 1200-1300 Scottish aketon

Re: 1200-1300 Scottish aketon

Re: 1200-1300 Scottish aketon

Re: Hello and bascinet question

Re: Hello and bascinet question

Re: The Journal of the Arms and Armour Society

Re: The Journal of the Arms and Armour Society

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines

Re: Corrazinas and Brigandines