The Armour Archive

Ernst

That does seem bass ackwards, with solid plates on the inner thigh, and mail on the outside rear

Ernst

Another factor which should not be overlooked is physiological. The "fight or flight" response, adrenal surge, or display of "hysterical strength" is not unreported in combat conditions.

Ernst

The 1322 London Armourers' regulation, cited in ffoulkes, indicates reused bascinets were used, even among the nobility, at great risk. "Also, seeing that as well lord as man have found theirs to be old bacinets, battered and vamped-up, but recently covered by persons who know nothing of the trade; ...

Ernst

Similar to the later St.Ursula jacks, perhaps?

Ernst

The "1251" kicked you outside the "1250" parameter. I still have issues with the "first quarter of the century" not being 1201-1225. Librarians seem to run from 1200-1225.

Ernst

The dating of manuscripts is often imprecise. Using the parameters of 1250-1275 for France brought this example. There are numerous others within the same manuscript.
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/5454/18134

Ernst

I'm with John Vernier, seamstresses and tailors vs. armorer's guilds. It's like why turned furniture gets pins (nails) while joined furniture gets pegs.

Ernst

Internet Archive is widely used for translations of medieval texts already, so many iof us are used to the format. Thanks for the link.

Ernst

I had hastily posted a response this morning, but deleted it, to give the matter more thought. "Tymbria scurellorum" may truly be related to squirrel fur. Tymbria/timbria appears in later records as a bundle of 40 or 50 pelts, so may have nothing to do with wood or timber https://www.sizes.com/units...

Ernst

Perhaps of more interest is the fact that the cargo belonged to German merchants. The common narrative being that pairs of plates originated in German speaking regions, perhaps influenced or spurred on by the Mongol invasions. This may point out that the language of 'par de platis' may not have been...

Ernst

There are cuiries which are some kind of hardened leather defense for the chest. They may appear show up in the Maciejowski Bible and in some English effigies which Pavel A. did not include. Cuirie is the root of cuirass and chorassina so there is an etymological connection from these to later plat...

Ernst

Here's a previous thread with two sources from the 1280s showing shoulder hinges. The likeliest explanation for me is a side-opening pair of plates.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=185968

Ernst

Pavel's thread on the XIII Century FB page is a good start. Whether the origin lies in the Baltic Wars or the Mongol invasion is debatable, but the geography of the early sources is consistent.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/xiiicentu ... tid=Nif5oz

Ernst

Is there a reason to think the fitz Marmaduke inventory refers to defensive chains rather than weapon retention chains?

Ernst

Some of the Wisby coifs use "Option B", a sewn-in lining

Ernst

Coque = cockle, shell, or hull.
In English, something which opens in two halves like a cockle, clam, or walnut. Sounds like what we would term an armet with two equal side plates, unlike the single door Chalcis helms.

Ernst

The horn blower from Lucerne doesn't seem unusual, but he's got no canting heraldic charge to draw inspiration from.

Ernst

Partlett collars seems to be a common description.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/searc ... %20&title=

Ernst

I'm going to be at the MET at the end of June. Despite several attempts to contact the staff of the Arms and Armor department, I have never received any response. Blame COVID, etc. I was really hoping to get a few hours looking at mail sleeves which have no data besides a catalog number. If anyone h...

Ernst

More fuel for the fire from Pavel Alekseychik
https://zenodo.org/record/6409308#.YkmHwrdOmxx

Ernst

I'm pretty certain "persed" is pursed, like pursed lips, i.e. drawn tight, puckered.

Ernst

Looking at the plates, I suspect a "mail and plates" arrangement with the plates connected by strips of mail. I know many others are more knowledgeable of Eastern European and Turkish/Persian armors, so am looking for other opinions. https://www.academia.edu/35868797/A_study_of_lamellar_armour_plate...

Ernst

viewtopic.php?p=2328967#p2328967

Ernst

How else to insure the peasants hear what you're telling them? ;) I'm used to vel being "either-or", but this seems to be one of those rare instances where it means "also this". The thorax may have been specifically vague, so that a variety of body armors, in addition the buckram jupons, would meet ...

Ernst

From Facebook, another example of buckram jupons, this time from Bavaria. Mart Shearer, there's also the 1244' mention of collars in the Bavarian Territorial Peace, in the item permitting the peasants to wear to church "Thoraces vel ysenhut vel colliria vel juppas de pukramo vel cultrum latinum" - "...

Ernst

The examples you have shown use wire rings or staples to attach adjacent scales into horizontal rows. The scale are then sewn to the backing fabric through the four holes at the top, like sewing on a shirt button. Some surviving examples run a piece of twine along the row between the four holes, wit...

Ernst

I found a few references in Philippe de Remi, Sire de Beaumanoir's 'Jehan et Blonde', from c.1240. There's an arming sequence beginning at line 3991 (p.260), beginning with, "espaulieres De bouree de soie, mout chieres", then "bacinet", some sort of garland ("galandesche") on the head, and then a "p...

Ernst

More on nerves, as I questioned how to translate this.

1322 Inventory of Roger de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, at Wigmore Castle (Ordered by Edward II)

v. capell' de ferro
(5 iron kettle hats)
j. capell' de nervis
(1 kettle hat of sinew?)

Ernst

My basic feeling is that they would say "Montauban" in the same way we would say "Stetson" or "Fedora", that is, individual examples might vary, but a general form exists. Aventail still seems a peculiar choice for a brim, unless it's ventilated. Perhaps a downward sloping brim with a rounded skull ...

Ernst

Well at least we now have a description! The crest is easy enough to understand, but the aventail leaves me confused. Finding contemporary art might help.

Ernst

Among these, almost everyone agrees that aketon is derived from the Arabic word for cotton, and jupon from the Arabic men's gown the jubbah. Pourpoint from French via Latin meaning pricked with a needle is home-grown. The wambeis/gambesons has two schools of thought, the first suggesting it comes fr...

Ernst

I still wonder with the "sive" usually being an either/or proposition if the gambesatas (or gamboissed tunics) are not a separate, but functionally equivalent item to the gambeson, or should I be reading "sive" as aka?

Ernst

Further, from the same XIII century European Armour FB thread, Nath dos Reis wrote, The oldest mention for the word "gamboised" under a hauberk is 1211 in Gui de Bourgogne. "La coiffe de l'auberc li rompi et faussa et puis le ganbison, si qu'el chief le navra" The coif of the hauberk was torn and cu...

Ernst

If I am correct that this entire phrase belongs together, I think it limits the construction. stivelez de plates garnis de teles & de fer & d'acier, ou de l'un ou de l'autre, & de bourre de saye & de coton a souffere Boots of plates (complete with cloth) of iron/steel, either the one or the other, w...

Ernst

Merrick tackled the goceons in the Inquiry , where he considers it an aventail, without justification or explanation. A Google search for "goceons" brings back publications from 1707 onwards, though I can't read them on this screen. Perhaps it appears in another document for added context? Perhaps a...

Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Re: Could swords split Greathelms?

Re: Could swords split Greathelms?

Re: Cloth or Metal Studs?

Re: Battle between horsemen circa 1266

Re: Battle between horsemen circa 1266

Re: Why was the jack of pates developed and popularised when the brigantine was already in use.

Re: Italian MS Digitized

Re: Early Pairs of Plates

Re: Early Pairs of Plates

Re: Early Pairs of Plates

Re: Early Pairs of Plates

Re: Early Pairs of Plates

Re: Chains and Strips of Mail

Re: Mail coifs & hair

Re: The Biquoque Helmet

Re: The swiss hornblower with ears and horns on his head

Re: Arming Patletts and Arming Bolsters

Metropolitan Museum of Art Contact?

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350

Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

14 c. Vilnius "Lamellar"

Re: How to clean a mail shirt

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350

Re: lorica squamata

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350

Re: Felt Armour

Re: The Chapel de Montauban

Re: The Chapel de Montauban

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350

Re: Written Sources for Gambesons/Aketons/Pourpoints 1100-1350

Re: Challenge of the Viscount of Rohan to Signeur of Beaumanoir, 1309

Re: Challenge of the Viscount of Rohan to Signeur of Beaumanoir, 1309