Discussion Pizan vs Standard: what is the difference?

[Mac]

Your link to the zoomed in version does not seem to lead to a bigger for me.
I did find this one though @1800x2437

It looks like I had the wrong thing on my clipboard when I pasted the link. I should have checked it last night. I have changed it to this one.
http://www.warfare2.netai.net/Medieval/ ... -large.htm

Mac

[Galleron]

Check out the guy on the left with the orange fabric stuff on his kettle hat.

This gets you a zoomed in version. http://www.warfare2.netai.net/Medieval/ ... -large.htm

......

Mac

(edited link... I hope that works now)

Reminds me of the cloth shade for the back of the head and neck on a French Foreign Legion kepi

[Ernst]

Havelocks, hardly as new an idea as the naming.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?tags="havelock"

[Tom B.]

Take a look at the mail collar on this effigy that Ernst posted in another thread:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilam ... 468647900/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilam ... 468647900/

Dated 1360-1380?
This looks like what I would call a standard.
Is that the "cape" of the standard we see sticking out on to his shoulder?

[Mac]

Well, dang! It's got a little point over the shoulder just like the one in the Wallace etc.

This does not strike me as the sort of thing a sculptor just makes up. It looks like we need to think of the bilaterally symmetrical ones as occurring at least this early.



Mac

[Tom B.]

Well, dang! It's got a little point over the shoulder just like the one in the Wallace etc.

This does not strike me as the sort of thing a sculptor just makes up. It looks like we need to think of the bilaterally symmetrical ones as occurring at least this early.



Mac

Exactly my point!
We are seeing standards (with defined collar and bilateral symmetry) in at least the last 1/4 of the 14th and pisans (conical shape) in the last quarter of the 15th (at least in Portugal).

[Ernst]

If the defining difference is shape rather than weave....

Is there a non-English reference to a pisane, or is this only an English naming practice?

[Ernst]

The 1316 Inventory of Louis X of France starts with some interesting bits. Being the king, it's easy to see why most of his mail is made of more expensive steel than the more common iron. But we are left with an array of mail which seems designed to protect the neck; double gorgets, a camail, Pisane collars, and a barber. It's possible the double gorgets might be the same as the English standards, with reinforced mail at the neck. The camail is understood well enough, but the mail barber - beard - might be a coif or mail bevor. The description of being all-riveted from Chambly plus its location in the inventory leave little doubt that it's mail.

Premierement 33. Hantes Gorgieres doubles de chambli.
Item uns pans et uns bras de jazeran d'acier.
Item uns pans et uns bras de roondes mailles de haute cloüeure.
Item uns pans et uns bras d'acier plus fors de mailles rondes de haute cloüeure.
Item uns pans et un bras d'acier, et le camail de mesme.
Item 3. coleretes Pizaines de jazeran d'acier.
Item une barbiere de haute cloüeure de chambli.
Item un jazeran d'acier.
Item un haubergon d'acier à manicles.
Item une couverture de jazeran de fer.
Item une couverture de mailles rondes demy cloées.
Item une testiere de haute cloüeure de maille ronde.
Item un haubert entier de Lombardie.
Item 2. autres haubergons de Lombardie.
Item 3. paires de chauces de fer.
Item 8. paires de chauçons, et un chauçon par dessus.

If I understand correctly, these are the mail items at the beginning of the inventory.

First, 33 familiar(?) double gorgets of Chambly.
Item, a paunce and a sleeve (presumably always a pair of each) of steel mail, jaserant work.
Item, a paunce and a sleeve or round mail, of high nailing (all riveted).
Item, a paunce and a sleeve of strongest steel of round mail of half nailing (demi-riveted).
Item, a paunce and a sleeve of steel, and a camail of the same.
Item, three Pisane collars of steel jaserant work.
Item, a "barber" of all-riveted mail of Cambly.
Item, one jaserant of steel.
Item, one haubergeon of steel with mittens.
Item, one jaserant covering (for the horse) of iron.
Item, one covering of round mail, demi-riveted.
Item, one testiere (for the horses head) of all-riveted round mail.
Item, an entire hauberk from Lombardy.
Item, 2 other haubergeons from Lombardy.
Item, three pair of iron chausses.
Item, eight pair of chaussons, and one over.

[Len Parker]

The guy on the right looks like he's got one with the point at the shoulder: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4705/13031/

[Len Parker]

Open front collar (third from bottom) http://forum.salisbury.com.ua/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=671 Also look at that mail coif, the way it wraps around the neck.

Lot of pics here:
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=26698

[Ernst]

Interesting bar grill in that too, Len.




Caspar Isenmann, Retable, Betrayal of Christ, 1465, Unterlinden Museum
The big image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Christ.jpg
The full image: http://www.musee-unterlinden.com/assets ... enmann.JPG

I wish we could see how the mail bevor is attached to the fabric covered helm. The buckles don't seem to have a function, do they?

[Tom B.]

Interesting bar grill in that too, Len.




Caspar Isenmann, Retable, Betrayal of Christ, 1465, Unterlinden Museum
The big image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Christ.jpg
The full image: http://www.musee-unterlinden.com/assets ... enmann.JPG

I wish we could see how the mail bevor is attached to the fabric covered helm. The buckles don't seem to have a function, do they?

The guy, on the right with his visor open, is wearing an armet with the mail attached to the lower edge.
This necessitates that the mail be in two pieces, one attached to the right cheek piece and one to the left.

I would assume that the mail bevor on the second guy must have a split going up higher than the buckle, else why have the buckle. The would allow the mail to open enough to fit his head through the narrow neck portion. The buckle the should hold this split closed with some overlap.

The guy with the bar grill is interesting.
We can't see exactly what type of helm he is wearing, how does it open?
If the mail attaches to the bottom edge of the helm, I think it does, then this mail must also be in two sections like on the armet. Although not necessarily in center front and back like the armet.

[Tom B.]

Here is another 15th century mail collar from Nuremberg at the Germanisches National Museum:

[Mac]

Interesting bar grill in that too, Len.




Caspar Isenmann, Retable, Betrayal of Christ, 1465, Unterlinden Museum
The big image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Christ.jpg
The full image: http://www.musee-unterlinden.com/assets ... enmann.JPG

I wish we could see how the mail bevor is attached to the fabric covered helm. The buckles don't seem to have a function, do they?

I worry about those mail bevors and related defenses that guys wore with kettle hats and such. You see them all the time in images of masses of armed men, yet the inventories don't seem to mention them..... Could these be the thing that the inventories are calling pizanes? They seem to fade from use about the same time that word disappears from the inventories. I realize that this is not what we have been assuming, but perhaps we need to think about this.

The other thing I want to mention, at the risk of thread déraillement is about that helmet. I think we are supposed to understand it as splinted leather. There is a whole class of armor that we see in paintings that looks like this. It's always brown, and has strips of steel and rivets. Like I said somewhere else recently; I am the last guy to cry "leather armor", but I think that's what it is. Maybe we should start another thread about it and see if we can come to some consensus.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Here is an early 16th century depiction of a mail bevor.
Note that he has his sallet tipped back to me this would indicate that it is not attached to the sallet.

ca. 1505-1508 - 'Christ Falls under the Cross, Nürnberger Kreuzweg' (Adam Kraft), Nürnberg, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 19/sizes/l

It think I might start a couple of new threads to keep this one on track and not to lose some of the interesting "off topic" things we have dug up.

Here is the first spin off thread:
Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets)

[Ernst]

I worry about those mail bevors and related defenses that guys wore with kettle hats and such. You see them all the time in images of masses of armed men, yet the inventories don't seem to mention them..... Could these be the thing that the inventories are calling pizanes? They seem to fade from use about the same time that word disappears from the inventories. I realize that this is not what we have been assuming, but perhaps we need to think about this.

Rather than a pisane, which is noted in the Louis X inventory as a collar, perhaps the less well defined barbiere from the same inventory? Sean Manning had PMd me about references to barbute di maglia in the Datini archive. The "barb-" / beard connection seems strong in both cases: An armor that covers the cheeks.

[Mac]

Ernst,

I'm good with the idea that something called a barbiere or a barbute de maglia covers the chin. If the inventories were filled with them, I would be happier.

What bothers me is that we have a great many depictions of a sort of mail neck defense that comes up high in back for use with a kettle hat, but we have no clear corollary in the inventories. Some of them cover the chin, (and might be barbieres) but many did not. Our understand of the period terminology is not complete until we can account for these formerly common defenses.

Mac

[RandallMoffett]

Mac,

But how often do they really show up in art? Could this not correlate to how often they come up in text? I think the other collar type neck defenses seem far more common from what I am seeing.

RPM

[Tom B.]

Mac,

But how often do they really show up in art? Could this not correlate to how often they come up in text? I think the other collar type neck defenses seem far more common from what I am seeing.

RPM

Are they kind of like the leather looking armour we are discussing in the other thread, meaning they are almost exclusively seen in these biblical scenes with Christ?

Is this possibly one of those formulaic theme ideas we have discussed before?

Panting with Christ and cross = 1 guy with leather armour + 1 mail bevor + maybe a bar grill visor ...

[Ernst]

Since Mac linked us to the 1420 Louvre inventory of Charles VI, and Tom brought it up in the other thread, there is this entry:

230. Item, unes manches d’acier et une gorgerette d’acier garnye de boucles, tissus et mordans, d’argent doré.

Since the sleeves of steel are listed as manches d'acier rather than some sort of bracer, I'm assured they are mail rather than plate. The neck defense is again a gorget, garnished with gilt silver buckles, and equipped with, I presume, tawed leather straps -- the tissue and mordant. Tissus could mean a piece of fabric or cloth as well. I'm not sure how the mordant is to be taken outside of alum or perhaps some urine based tanning.

[Mac]

Ernst,

I think I have seen strap and belt chapes called "mordants". The word tissu is used for spur straps, regardless (I think) of whether they are leather or textile. The same is probably true here as well.

Mac

[Ernst]

I've learned something today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_buckle

Very small buckles with removable center pins and chapes were introduced and used on shoes, beginning in the 17th century, but not often for waist-belts. A "chape" is the fixed cover which attaches buckle to belt while the "mordant" or "bite" is the adjustable portion.

[Mac]

http://www.jewels-gems-clocks-watches.c ... try=118484

belt mordant

"A metal plate or chape at the tip end of a belt opposite the buckle, sometimes ornamented and jeweled." Oppi Untracht. Jewelry Concepts and Technology. Doubleday. 1982, 1985

I realize that this does not tell us anything about medieval usage, and that strictly speaking it's ridiculous to call the chape a "mordant", since it does not bite anything. I just felt that I had to demonstrate that I was not just mak'n shit up.

Mac

[Tom B.]

I have started gathering images onto a Pinterest Board.
Medieval mail collars both extant & in art

Feel free to point me to others.

[Ernst]

Here's an interesting one. Four straps and buckles on a front closure, and a fabric(?) hood. Perhaps a barbiere, barbute de maglia, or just a standard over a hood. (Painting has been previously discussed for the baies toggles and leather armor.)
http://armourinart.com/40/49/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... rio_04.jpg

[Tom B.]

Is there anything to learn here or has it been mucked with too much?

(click on either image to open the PDF)


I am particularly interested in the hook.

[Ernst]

I'm sure something could be learned from a detailed study of this mail bevor turned aventail, but am generally inclined to vote for the "mucked with too much" option.

[Tom B.]

One of the Bevors at the Met:

[Ernst]

Tom,
It might be worth noting the DHM "aventail" example still retains a buckle on the left side, and a rivet (presumably for a strap) on the right side of the split in the back. If there was ever the hook fastener as well, it may now be hidden in the leather band or cording for the vervelles.

Also see:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=171879

[Mac]

Here's an interesting one. Four straps and buckles on a front closure, and a fabric(?) hood. Perhaps a barbiere, barbute de maglia, or just a standard over a hood. (Painting has been previously discussed for the baies toggles and leather armor.)
http://armourinart.com/40/49/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... rio_04.jpg

I think we are supposed to understand that to be a helmet (armet?). Something has happened to the pigment to make it all blotchy. The same thing is going on with his leg armor.

Mac

[Ernst]

Mac,
No disagreement that there's a pigment issue. It's loss is also seen on a number of the backing helmets, and on the hosen on the fellow in red armor to the right. Meanwhile the plate legs on the nail bearer to his right are quite clear.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... rio_05.JPG

Were those chin-covering armets in use in as early as the 1410 dating assigned? I'm sure I've seen them by 1430-1440, but it seems quite advanced for such a lowly figure. And what to make of the piercings at the cheek? Doesn't the mail seem long for a camail? I'm not quite sure what to make of it either.

[Mac]

I think that an armet is OK with the painting's date.. give or take. The triangular piercings in the cheek plates (?) are beyond my explanation.

This whole painting has a lot more "out n' out weirdness" than you might expect, even for the genre. Check out Simon of Cyrene. The bloody cut on his head is what we might infer in a man who was compelled by the Romans to help Jesus carry the Cross; but what's with his lip/cheek? Part of it is missing and we can see his teeth showing through the gap. The lack of blood shows that this is not a fresh injury. To my knowledge, this is not how he is usually depicted.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Since we have been adding the mail bevors to the discussion here I though I would post this guy.
I found this while searching for more wood carvings by Veit Stoss the same guy who did the wooden altar in St. Mary's Basilica, Kraków Poland

This is dated 1500 and currently in the Salzburg Museum.

[Tom B.]

I have created a new thread for discussion of mail bevors:

Researching Mail Bevors

[Ernst]

Randall and I were discussing the 1302 inventory of Raoul de Clermont-Nesle, Constable of France, on a Facebook group. Raoul was KIA at Courtrai in 1302 when in his 50s, so much of the armor not taken with him and his retainers might well date to the late 13th century.
https://books.google.com/books?id=c6BAA ... &q&f=false

The various neck defenses include:

Item, i gazaraut & i camail de maisme. viii l.
Item, ii gorgeretes pisaines. xxx s.
Item, ii gorgeretes de plates. xl s.
Item, pour viii que hauberions que haubers et iii camus en les cédules du pris précédent. xliii l
Item, une gorgiere. xxs

Item, 1 jazerant & 1 camail of the same. 8 livres
Item, 2 pisane gorgets. 30 sous
Item, 2 gorgets of plates. 40 sous
Item, for 8 haubergeons, hauberks, and camails previously listed as a set. 43 livres
Item, a gorget. 20 sous