Splinted bracer questions

[Halbrust]

I really like the look of splinted bracers. I’m planning on using them with a one piece elbow as the only visible armor other than helm/aventail. With that said I have a few questions.

Are splinted bracers remotely appropriate for Rus or Turkish in the 9th to 10th century?

What about a cloth back rather than a leather back? (I don’t want the splints showing skin in between)

Straight splints (rectangle) or are tapered splints (triangle-ish) OK?

Two different metals for alternating splints (mild and copper(plated))?

[Norman]

This is a commonly used image - from a Golden Ewer in the Nagyszentmiklos treasure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgar_warior.jpg
This is my illustration of what that would have looked like in person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Khazar_1.gif
If I was redrawing this I may have changed the arm defenses slightly.

What I see there is a set of tapering splints which are either butted or (my earlier assumption had been) overlapping.
Note that there are rivets at upper, middle, and lower section. My assumption (together with Gorelik for one) is that there were riveted to internal leather straps (one for each set of rivets) and you can see that there is an upper and lower cloth/leather border that is probably sewn to holes in the plates).
On the other hand, you can see the borders as evidence that the whole thing is backed and the backing is folded out at top and bottom.

ALternatively, there are lamellar fastened splints which have been found (ie: the splints overlap and are laced and tied together like lamellar)

I would NOT use a visible separate elbow plate.
This is the area of the world where the one-piece integrated elbow arm defense came from and the Khazars seem to have already been using a proto- version of this defense -- basicaly having the splints reach just past the elbow at the outside.

It may be best to have your sleeves cover the elbow so as not to deal with elbow historicity issues.

I don't see any reason not to use alternating yellow and white metal as a decorative element.

[Halbrust]

Thank you Norman (I'm finding myself saying that a lot)

My sleeves are 3/4 length and quite wide. So while standing or walking about the elbow cop will be hidden, but when fighting it will be seen at least intermittently.

I kind of like the idea of the yellow and white metals touching, I'll go that route.

I plan on engraving each splint with writing, whether or not there are examples of writing ever having existed on these splints. But I am curious if this was ever done. I'm OK doing something that is historically incorrect, but want to know that it is so.

[Norman]

Well, here's my thoughts and facts on the subject

Certainly 15th century and up we have fancy armour with writing all over it for Russia, Turkey, India, Persia
So my immediate response was - well, there's nothing ...but maybe why not --
For the early middle ages, the only piece of armour with writing that I can think of at the moment is the Coppergate helmet (Anglo-Saxon)
but I seem to remember that it was not considered unique for the inscription.

On the other hand, there are a number of German and German-style swords in Russia for the period you want which have inscriptions.
The fun thing is that the localy manufactured ones have gibberish -- evidently made by those who did not know what they were writing in imitation of the German originals.

This is sort of by way of answer to the one largest concern I had for your project -- what and how would you write on your armour?
I assume you neither know Turkic runes or any of the languages then used or early Cirilic writing or the early medieval Russian language.
I suppose those swords would give you the period justification for yourself writing gibberish as long as it looks like something that may have been written in your time and place. And judging by the swords, it may not be out of place for you to look at the Coopergate inscriptions and try to copy them ...or you could go with a random Byzantine icon of the 9-11 century

[Halbrust]

Ideally I want phrases from the Koran in period correct Turkish on the gold splints, and Old Norse phrases from the Havamal in the elder futhark on the white splints.

With the ON Havamal phrases I have resources to get me very close to correct.

With the Turkish Koran phrases, not so much. But it is something I assume I can find.

[Norman]

Ideally I want phrases from the Koran in period correct Turkish on the gold splints, ...With the Turkish Koran phrases, not so much. But it is something I assume I can find.

Koran phrases should not be in Turkish
They should be in Arabic
Translation was (and still is) more than frowned upon

I'm sure you can find images of Koran manuscripts from 9 and 10 century even online if you look hard enough ...and probably not all that hard.

May I ask why this combination design?
What is the personna or ... what is the symbolism or meaning?

[Halbrust]

Icelander now living in the near east wrking as a mercenary.

I'm intentionally mixing garb and armor from the two regions. Keep, make, or have made what you know from your land of origin. Buy local styles of things you can not.

The mixing of religious texts and languages on my bracers is mainly because I think it's cool. But also goes to show the slow integration of religion that has happened throughout history.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

OK Norman it's me, your favorite sword-unionizing russian offender Ivan, and I have some questions.

Since visible elbows cops are out but splinted vambraces are not out for 8th-9th cen rich sons of volga trader's.

What do you think is OK for:

Shoulder cops (I think there are some that would work but I forget).

Shin Protection.

Knee Protection.

Hand Protection.

Thigh Protection.

Any shield type's other than round center grip?

Keeping in mind that if nothing else I have a good plan for hidden arms and legs, what are your thoughts?


-Ivan

BTW I may change my name once I settle my period more but at least I have a replacement for my Ashcraft/Baker hat.

[Norman]

BTW I may change my name once I settle my period more ...

I was gonna mention that if you didn't want to be Christian, you can't be Ivan - that is a name that came from Greece with Christianity

Since visible elbows cops are out but splinted vambraces are not out for 8th-9th cen rich sons of volga trader's.
What do you think is OK for:
Shoulder cops (I think there are some that would work but I forget).
Shin Protection.

Firstly, if you look up there - you will note that the guy is wearing splints to protect his shins as well. Same pattern as the arms.

Also ... I had a nice writeup on a Khazar armour exhibit but Yahoo ate it.
Here is the Russian original.
http://www.tgorod.ru/index.php?topgroup ... tentid=240
8 or 9th century Khazar aromur
note the rectangleish shoulder plate
I think the second plate is a vambrace (forearm) but the official label is shoulder
Then there's the wonderful greaves. They are done in kindof a "spangen" construction - a frame with infil plates.
No knees though

Thigh Protection.

There are Khazar period illustrations of warriors in full lamellar - including skirts to below the knee and upper arms. Pretty much like the 14th century Mongol coats they have at Royal Armouries.

Knee Protection.

Best for 10ish century are KaraKhitai images (ie: Turkic China) of what seem to be heavily padded round cloth knees.
(note Chinese trade goods do apear in Khazarian graves -- and these folks are culturaly similar)
Otherwise --
This is a bit later period ...quite a bit ...still very similar culture - and in the proper region:
12-14 century Kipchak tomb - note the half-oval knees attached by mail to the greaves

It actualy goes a bit better with the helmet you picked out (alas - photo does not contain the greaves)
http://www.tgorod.ru/contentimage/kuban/case6.jpg
From here:
http://www.tgorod.ru/index.php?topgroup ... tentid=252

Hand Protection.

Can't help much there. The best I know of is a 5-6 century mitten gauntlet in Meinz (attachment)
Otherwise, I see it as a necessity and wear mitten gauntlets constructed without sliding rivets to be more culturaly plausible.

Any shield type's other than round center grip?

Well, there's the realy big ones that don't seem to be gripped at all (just wear on the back to protect gainst arows while riding)
Otherwise, its all center grips as far as I know -- either big ones quite similar to Viking or realy small ones -- bucklers roughly a foot wide

Again - if you go with Kipchak, you get more moderate sized shields. But still center gripped

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Sorry for the hijack

I was gonna mention that if you didn't want to be Christian, you can't be Ivan - that is a name that came from Greece with Christianity

OK I seem to have lost the PreChristian Rus names that you might find around Novgorod around the time of the Khazar Rus. The closest Phonetic one to my name would be Ivarr (yew warrior).

Can you help me out?

The First name list I still have is:
Borislav (BattleGlory)
Zhiroslav (WealthGlory)
Domazhir (HouseWealth)

and last names are:
Utinov (the Duck)
Ovchukhov (the Shepherd )

Kinda a pathetic list.

I know that it would be OK for me to have one like Zhiroslav Korisen right?

I have found this site: www.Behindthename.com which has this cool page

Any input would be nice.

-Ivan

[Norman]

Sorry for the hijack

I was gonna mention that if you didn't want to be Christian, you can't be Ivan - that is a name that came from Greece with Christianity

OK I seem to have lost the PreChristian Rus names that you might find around Novgorod around the time of the Khazar Rus. The closest Phonetic one to my name would be Ivarr (yew warrior).
Can you help me out?
The First name list I still have is:
Borislav (BattleGlory)
Zhiroslav (WealthGlory)
Domazhir (HouseWealth)
and last names are:
Utinov (the Duck)
Ovchukhov (the Shepherd )
Kinda a pathetic list.
I know that it would be OK for me to have one like Zhiroslav Korisen right?

Well, no clue what specific names were actualy used by individuals identified in Novgorod in any particular list.
Here are some general things that I know about pre-Christian Russian names (and some specifics):

Personaly, I would avoid names with "Zhir"
at least my modern association is with "Fat" so the names you presented give me the association of some gross fat bastard covered in Bling -
perfect character for the bad guy in a Soviet era medieval movie - he betrays his city to the Crusaders or Mongols for the promise of lucor and then dies in a particularly fitting and unflattering manner.
(like the fat guy in Jurasic park - but with crusaders instead of dinosaurs)

The main hero of the Novgorodian stories that came down to us is Sadko. I don't know where this name comes from or if there are any rules to be learned from it. Its a one-of -- so may not even be allowed for SCA

The standard "Viking" names are good if you are of Scandinavian origin. But these tend to get transformed into Russian equivalents (ie: Oleg, Igor)
Turkic names of non-Arabic origin (ie: NOT Mohamed, Ibrahim, Fatima) can also be good (like Bulan, Bulat, Bayan ...I'm blanking on anything else generic)

For Slavic origin names -
xyz+Slav is always good - some real fellows: Yaroslav (fierce glory) ; Svyatoslav (holy glory); Vladislav (rulerglory or maybe better - glory in power); Vecheslav (I think the meaning something like glory in council - Veche something like a parliament)
xyz+Mir is another - ie: Vladimir; Zhitomir; Ratmir
Put the two together for Miroslav

The Turkic, Scandinavian and Slavic ethnicities do get merged early on - so you can certainly have something like
Bayan son of Vecheslav
or the real historical ruler Svyatoslav Rurikovich (of the house of Rurik)

If you do wind up going Jewish (But this is definitely and separately Jewish) then the normal Biblical names should be fine - Joseph, Jacob, Abraham... Sarah ... as well as a couple of holiday names: Pesah and Hanukah are good male names, Purim is a female name
there are also less well known Talmudic names, ie: Serah (grandaughter of Jacob - she is not in the Bible but is famous in oral "folklore")

There is a ..I think 11th century story about the conversion of a Viking to "Russian Orthodoxy".
Before he converted, his name was Shimon (which looks Jewish to me), after conversion he became Simon, his father's name was Africanus (latin name possibly denoting victories in Africa?), I don't remember his brother's name but only that it looked to be of Turkic origin.

There is not realy last names - they are nicknames
If you want animals - just name it, I could try to translate
(note: Utinov means something like "of duck" rather than 'the duck" ...maybe a professional like a duck hunter)
There is also ethnic nicknames (ie, two famous fellows: Murometz - from Murom or from the Muroma people; Khazarin - of Khazar origin)

If you don't want to be noble, there are job names (Kozhemyaka - leather softener / tanner - is a hero of the Pecheneg wars)

and some peasants even had rude names that we would think people don't want to be called (I don't recall examples but they can be scatological or otherwise unflattering)
...there was actualy a Bardic tradition of very rude social comedy (they would make the worst modern american comedian blush) - these guys were called Skomorohi (singular: Skomoroha) - all killed out by Ivan the Terrible. I can see them purposefully embracing obscene nicknames.