Advice for very small shoulder armour design (SCA)

[Jess]

Over the years, I've probably spent about a $1,000 on various pieces of shoulder armour, some custom. Most were variations on the Black Prince 14th century style i.e., a dished piece that covers the point of the shoulder and then lames going down the upper arm. I've owned some without lames too. None of them fit and none of them worked. All of them prevented me from raising my arm into my fighting stance. I fight a hand back Bellatrix style and this is not something I have any intention of changing.

I suppose part of the problem is that the distance from my neck to the point of my shoulder measured across the top of the shoulder is about 5 1/2" and with the arm raised it narrows to about 3 inches. Those measurements don't take into account any space occupied by the gorget. So we are talking about a very small area. Currently I've got a long aventail drape that offers some protection depending on the shot trajectory. For years, I used absolutely nothing.

It's SCA. I have the option of concealing what I use under a jupon, so it doesn't have to look good or be medieval. Have any smaller people found something that works?

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Jess, this is just an idea. Totally ahistoric but perhaps a variation on a Roman manica. small segments from the gorget down the shoulder and upper arm. It could be hidden under the jupon.

just a thought. perhaps by getting rid of the large upper piece it will all collapse on itself when your arm is raised but drop into position as the arm is extended.

[Ulric]

How about a simple floating cop, like you'd find on a Wisby CoP?

[Gryffinclaw]

How about a quilted splinted (internally with plastic) coif to wear under your aventail and loose the gorget and shoulder pieces. Put extra padding over the shoulder areas.

good luck

[InsaneIrish]

.....Currently I've got a long aventail drape that offers some protection depending on the shot trajectory. For years, I used absolutely nothing.

It's SCA. I have the option of concealing what I use under a jupon, so it doesn't have to look good or be medieval. Have any smaller people found something that works?

I think you may be asking armour to do something it can't. Usually shoulder armour has some kind of restriction for movement. That is anything more complex than a simple shoulder cop.

Free range movement at the shoulder usually means no plate armour.

I think you may have keyed on a solution already. You could lengthen your aventail to cover your shoulders. You can also re-enforce pad your upper arms and shoulders of your gambeson. Add a simple shoulder cop, chainmail, and padding and I think you might achieve the protection you want.

[Tibbie Croser]

Thorvaldr's idea sounds a bit like the 16th-century Almain collar (I think Mercenary Tailor sells one).

[Konstantin the Red]

Jess, where were your shoulder cops fastening, and onto what? A fourteenth-century arming coat? Perhaps we might leave out the least successful of your several schemes or layouts of your shoulder armor -- and describe your torso armor too, for that is likely to figure in all this. Particularly its shoulder arrangements.

[Amanda M]

I have zero problem with my shoulder armor restricting movement. They're spring steel, so I hardly notice I'm wearing them at all. My shoulder measurements are about the same as yours. From my neck to the point of my shoulder is just over 5 1/2".

I just have a dog collar gorget though so my spaulders don't make any contact with my gorget. They're pointing to my arming coat at the point of the shoulder then strapped in one spot. However, the range of articulation on them is excellent.

[Sean Powell]

Not certain who does armoring down in e-vile but sounds like you need A) a custom fit and B) a very flexible connection with your gambeson or body armor. If it isn't going to be seen then there is no reason it has to look like period armor so you can actually design the armor with smaller plates that gap reather then overlap. This will maximize flexibility at the cost of letting in the oddball knife-edge... which isn't aproblem with 1.25" sticks.

Sean

[mrks]

how about something like this articulation pattern.
rolls up with an arm/elbow up stance like the one I use.

<table><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JLD6yoxy1LmO485APdsS5FXYWgj7nurf1GAUV19dhqQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_xijnVOFwTh4/Sl6UnUbXOGI/AAAAAAAAAPk/P5nyUTpORgc/s400/IMG_3065.JPG"></a></td></tr><tr><td>From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/sirmrks/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCMn1qs7Qgebm-gE&feat=embedwebsite">Drop Box</a></td></tr></table>

mrks

[Cet]

Are you concerned with protecting the whole shoulder or primarily the lateral deltoid? Are you wanting to cover the upper trapezius as well as the deltoids?

[Jess]

The majority of the other shoulder armour I tried was pointed to an arming coat. I did also try hanging it with a strap rivited directly to a breastplate strap that crossed over my shoulder. That was worse than the pointing, but it may have been due to that particular piece's ill design and poor fit more than anything.

I'm not really worried about the trap at all. I've never been hit there. Although I suppose by writing that I'm inviting it. Mainly I'll looking to avoid shoulder seperation / dislocation / fracture. Or if I can't avoid it, I'd prefer not to be mocked when it happens.

For body armour, I'm wearing a spring globose BP with a leather backplate. The breast and back are attached by about 1 inch leather shoulder straps. I've got a winter tree crafts gorget so it's not particularly bulky or anything. I'm not wearing anything on my upper arms either, so there's no concern about the arm armour interfering with it.

Isabella, I can't see your pics at work, but I'll check them out at home tonight.

Mrks, that's an interesting looking piece. You can fight western style stance in that?

So there isn't really any applicable modern sports gear people use?

[mrks]

hi jess
I fight arm back.

new style shoulders: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmPya4jHfj8

old style shoulders much more protective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqbeXuIZ ... re=channel

more videos at: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rmrks&aq=f

lots of pictures on the link in the post above. here is one from wifes facebook: <table><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/l03BT77xnUdLEMGsmDl0ng?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_xijnVOFwTh4/TKJm2xqV2NI/AAAAAAAABAM/uGJ2MQ8jJfQ/s400/newhelm.jpg"></a></td></tr><tr><td>From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/sirmrks/NewHelm?feat=embedwebsite">new helm</a></td></tr></table>

sorry I cant do better than videos I dont have access to my sca pics in the shop.

but the answer is very well I dont even notice them. they dont bang around like a solid cop and weight about 5/8ths of a pound or so.

use the idea and get something custom made by someone near you.

edit: if you are worried about protection I have 2 1/2 wide metal shoulder straps with small wings hinged/suspended above them covering the gap between the shoulder and the cop. I can take and have taken the stoutest blows and never been injured. the flip up when my arm is up.

mrks
mrks

[Amanda M]

The majority of the other shoulder armour I tried was pointed to an arming coat. I did also try hanging it with a strap rivited directly to a breastplate strap that crossed over my shoulder. That was worse than the pointing, but it may have been due to that particular piece's ill design and poor fit more than anything.

I'm not really worried about the trap at all. I've never been hit there. Although I suppose by writing that I'm inviting it. Mainly I'll looking to avoid shoulder seperation / dislocation / fracture. Or if I can't avoid it, I'd prefer not to be mocked when it happens.

For body armour, I'm wearing a spring globose BP with a leather backplate. The breast and back are attached by about 1 inch leather shoulder straps. I've got a winter tree crafts gorget so it's not particularly bulky or anything. I'm not wearing anything on my upper arms either, so there's no concern about the arm armour interfering with it.

Isabella, I can't see your pics at work, but I'll check them out at home tonight.

Mrks, that's an interesting looking piece. You can fight western style stance in that?

So there isn't really any applicable modern sports gear people use?

The shoulders I have saved me at Estrella from what probably would have been a pretty nasty shot to the point of the shoulder. It slid off my helm and onto my shoulder. Since I have a pointy oniontop, stuff coming down from above is going to deflect a lot and I wanted to have some armor there. I don't even have any padding underneath. They worked pretty admirably. If you want I could send them to you and you could try them out. I think my arms are just longer than yours.

[Cet]

My recommendation would be an upper cannon that extends up the lateral deltoid, a simple hinged scutum shaped shoulder with the hinge point in line with hinge of the of the humerus (such as found at Wisby), and ,for extra insurance, a separate besagew covering the anterior deltoid area.

If this description isn't clear I can e-mail a sketch.

[Jess]

ok. Mrks this is fascinating because your elbow doesn't appear to be elevated higher than your shoulder. It's parallel to both your shoulder and the ground. I'm rasing mine a lot higher. My elbow is frequently angled higher than my ear, sometimes almost near the top of my head.

I need to figure out if that's because I'm short and need the angle for my sword lines or if that's unneccessary and should be eliminated. Obviously, if I don't need my elbow that high it is going to make it a heck of a lot easier to get functioning shoulder protection.

Isabella, what you have is gorgeous, but I know from experience there is absolutely no way that will work for what I want to do.

[mrks]

hi jesst

when I learned how to fight I was 5 9 at 135 lbs and needed to learn how to generate power with a small frame and musculature.

I am assuming you are a smaller fighter?

to develop power using my stance you launch your hips and the slight moment after that launch your elbow down while bringing your hand/sword from behind your back like a whip. the sword in pell practice should pass as close to your ear as you can train yourself. in practice centrifugal force will bring it away from your body some but this keeps the distance the sword travels in a straight line and short a distance as possible.

your upper body rotates around while your hips while starting the blow stay quiet and like a belly dancer you disconnect the two letting your trunk rotate. this allow you unhindered movement while throwing because you are not generating power using your fragile knees.

this develops tremendous force but is very readable. there are many tricks using body mechanics that a smaller fighter can use to play with the big boys.

it sounds like you need to find a smaller fighter who uses your style and has good body mechanics to help you work on your form.

I would also suggest using a heater shield with that style because holding a center grip tires you out faster and causes you to tense the side of the body holding the shield.

tensing costs you energy, speed and creates an imbalance in your body between what should be relaxed your sword and what is forced to be tense which is what a center grip hold causes a smaller fighter to be at all times as they struggle to keep the shield on line.

bringing my elbow up over my ear cause a lack of balance and stresses my particular frame to bend in an unnatural position.

but back to the armour I think you can easily attain what you are looking for with the right pattern and harness setup.

remember when fighting sword back... it is for long range fighting or an opening move because the moment you enter medium and short range the iron chicken style (and its variations) is always faster and has a better defense than you do with your arm back.

mrks

[Jess]

I'll have Sir Vitus take a look at my elbow position and see what he thinks.

Thank you all for the ideas. I'll let you know if I'm able to get something I like.

[Amanda M]

ok. Mrks this is fascinating because your elbow doesn't appear to be elevated higher than your shoulder. It's parallel to both your shoulder and the ground. I'm rasing mine a lot higher. My elbow is frequently angled higher than my ear, sometimes almost near the top of my head.

I need to figure out if that's because I'm short and need the angle for my sword lines or if that's unneccessary and should be eliminated. Obviously, if I don't need my elbow that high it is going to make it a heck of a lot easier to get functioning shoulder protection.

Isabella, what you have is gorgeous, but I know from experience there is absolutely no way that will work for what I want to do.

No problem, I hope you get it sorted out.

[Ingelri]

I agree. A quilted coif under the aventail should provide sufficient padding and would be a period addition asmost aventails were probably lined.

How about a quilted splinted (internally with plastic) coif to wear under your aventail and loose the gorget and shoulder pieces. Put extra padding over the shoulder areas.

good luck

[Murdock]

yeah i think that adding a pad under your jupon is your best bet


i'd love to sell ya spaulders but, maybe a hex pad shirt with shoulders would work for ya or just add padding to the aventail