The Armour Archive

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 1:46 am**

I want to point out that I make less than $6000 a year, and am somewhat in debt. Still, I own and fight in a damn nice full plate harness. I have never made more than $6000 a year (I'm a starving college student), and have always fought in the same armour. I have posted the total cost of my armour several times. It isn't nearly as expensive as some people believe. There is no excuse for (exposed) plastic armour.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 1:55 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
Dan Quote: "It is possible to make a legal hlemet from a double layer of freon can, but it isn't recommended. It would, however, pass."

Cool. I should do this just to horrify the local marshalls and fighters that know me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL My Knight wants to go to a tourney in SCA minimum legal armor just to show the marshals how little is really required and see how many have a heart attack on the spot....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I don't have a problem with banning other non period materials such as aluminum, although at least thats a metal, I agree street sign shields should have the back painted. I'm not really sure why Cuir Boilli isn't period if I understood the waxed leather question though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I have a problem banning them for several reasons, many of which are in my posts above. Ad to that, that here it is very difficult to get some of the materials and rather more expensive than many other places. From hunting around places like McMaster-Carr it would frequently be cheeper to order steel online and pay the rediculous shipping to get it here than it is to buy it at the single steel yard in town, even if you buy from teh scrap bin. Their idea of a discount on scrap is not charging you the $5 per cut cutting fee they'd charge if you had them cut the piece to size.

As to wax hardened leather, there is absolutely no documentation or archeological evidence for it that I have heard of. Water hardened is more plausible. I'll defer to Duke Cariodoc on that issue. My study of it is very limitted and he seems to have taken a huge interest in the subject.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Butted mail I always thought was an Eastern/Asian form, not Western European, although I have been told I am wrong I have yet to see firm evidence to show me for sure. But that is a construction technique, not a materials/weight issue which is what we are discussing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it is definately a weight issue. 14 ga butted weighs twice as much or more than a period, European set of mail of comparable size and coverage. I have seen 14th century/ 15th century mid thigh or longer, long sleeve mail shirts documented at 15 to 20 pounds.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
If you wanted to start talking about construction techniques it is certainly a valid point, hence the fights over whether basket hilts and bar grills of particular designs are authentic or not, but the butted mail one is a little bit of a stretch. If you want to go to that extreme I don't mind, I'll make or buy rivited maille, but I don't think most of the SCA would go along with it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The particular construction isn't my problem. But the idea that it gives a correct representation is a problem. I don't know how many people belive a period hauberk would weight 45 to 50 pounds because that's what the butted weighs, when you can't find a period example that weighs half that. My argument is that to claim butted mail gives a moreperiod representation of what it was like to fight is incorrect. It just goes too far the other way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
You have about as much a chance of getting that one passed as banned welded helmet construction for styles that would have been raised from a single sheet. Also, the SCA as a whole would be against you. When you talk about banning plastic, in particular exposed plastic, the overwhelming majority of the SCA members I know are in favor of it, when you take into account the wishes of the non-fighters as well. Its a lot easier to pass legislation aimed at improving our appearance and quality when you have the popular vote on your side. Maybe the West is in love with plastic so much that your kingdom would fight to retain plastic, if so, it might be the only kingdom to feel that way if non-fighters are included.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you'll have a problem getting rid of visible plastic. I can't think of anyone, other than a few people who preech it as the perfect thing for Japanese armor, who would even argue the point. However, I think you'd find all kinds of opposition to banning it completely, just as you would the items you mentioned above or you'd get if you tried to ban anything but period fibers in fabric, etc.

Dan
(who can't seem to shut up tonight...

)

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 4:27 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CBA:
B.S. on all of you!!!

TODAY, If you come to my house for a 3 day weekend and bring beer, I will send you home with all the material for a 14gu 1/2 id maille hauberk. Just have really cool stories and don't be a geek.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
14 gauge is kind of thick for period maille... especially if it's not rivetted. ;-)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
( The "MACHINE" works)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is the machine?

 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
LONG before that, when I first got into the LARP scene ( notice the preface),

My ex wife had divorced me and I had a duffle bag of clothes and $50 in my pocket,
I went back to school on the GI Bill, worked crappy minimum wage jobs, BOUGHT a HARLEY FREAKING DAVIDSON SPORTSTER...god I miss my bike...AND built NON SCA legal, non historical, sometimes not so safe but really cool looking, plate by scrounging junkyards and the DPW recycle yard for FREE.

IT TAKES SOME HUSTLE!!!!!

Whether you're SCA, Live Steel, Larp, Living History or someother... if you got the GOTTA WANNA, you'll find a way!.. Oh hell, I've become one you! Sh*t!!!!!!!!
 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's why I advocate plastic, makes it a bit easier on those with little funds. ;-)

I don't say visible plastic is ok by the way... except as a get you by type of thing 'til you have something to hide it under.
 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Garridan, don't play the poverty card with me, My Freshman year of college ( at age 25) I slept in a 1982 Camaro and took showers in the gym for 4 weeks. BEEN THERE DONE THAT!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've lived in a '77 AMC Hornet, for longer than 4 weeks (because of a woman ::grumble piss moan::. Also had to sleep in an abandoned building way back when I was 19 because I'd gotten arrested for something I didn't do, and while I was in jail waiting for trial (case was dismissed before it ever reached trial) I lost my job and apartment.

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]]\\[[ (()) ]]\\//[[ //=\\ ]]))

Michael AKA Nomad
Barony of Starkhafn, Caid

[This message has been edited by Nomad (edited 01-21-2001).]

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 4:34 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joaquin:
I want to point out that I make less than $6000 a year, and am somewhat in debt. Still, I own and fight in a damn nice full plate harness. I have never made more than $6000 a year (I'm a starving college student), and have always fought in the same armour. I have posted the total cost of my armour several times. It isn't nearly as expensive as some people believe. There is no excuse for (exposed) plastic armour.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, how do you pay rent, tuition, and grocery bills? You must be some kind of financial genius if you're able to support yourself on that and have full plate, help me out. :-)

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]]\\[[ (()) ]]\\//[[ //=\\ ]]))

Michael AKA Nomad
Barony of Starkhafn, Caid

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 4:44 am**

Ok I have waited awhile before I decided to Fan the Flames. I am anti plastic. I am pro steel or leather. It's that simple. I will take it as a giving most people have some hidden plastic (Cups) I am not completely against hidden plastic other than as a basic knee jerk reaction.

However we are getting no where complaining about our mutual poverty we sound like rejects from a Monty Python skit. "I was so poor we lived in box in middle of the road."

This is also not the "Society for the Creative use of ABS" no matter what people say.

Just Hide the damn plastic and Ill be fine so will most other anti Plastic people on this Board. And no I dont care how poor you are Hide it or Ill call you LAZY. Hell hide it or you are Lazy.

Also if you go out and pay top dollar for an Egg Armoury piece of junk or a DV (Sorry and I cant believe people actually buy the stuff, and as much as I think its junk I'm so tempted to start making some decent looking hideable plastic just to get the non hidable stuff off the field)piece of Junk.

If you buy that stuff your not poor and you don't plan on hiding it. Its hard to hide an egg armoury leg when it has that freaking big fan sticking out.

The solution is what some of us in the Tourney Companies are talking about. Wev want to start a separate authentic harness list at many events. This allows the plastic paladins to have their fun in a separate list and maybe we can get them to up their standards.
http://www.stormloader.com/users/brennus/interkin.htm

We are slowly building.

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sic locus dignum, sic dignus placitum http://www.hci.net/~brennus

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:23 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Brennus:

If you buy that stuff your not poor and you don't plan on hiding it. Its hard to hide an egg armoury leg when it has that freaking big fan sticking out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to show folks how confussed I am on the whole issue, here I am now to defend plastic

Brennus, you can (and I have) order the EGG armour sans fan. I did this to solve my problem of trying to be "unarmoured" on my legs for my Russian kit. They work great for pulling off the look. I will say I'm not to keen on thier protective qualities however. Shots to the leg have a definet sting to them.

I have said all I have previously against exposed plastic, not hidden in a jack or under maille, I doubt anyone has a problem with that if its your using a modern material to deal with a modern rule for participation.

Oh and a damn sheet with a hole in the middle does not make a sufficient cover for some ugly @ss plastic lorica... or hideous leather body bracelet for that matter.

Anyway... thats all my ramblings....

Janos

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 11:07 am**

BTW, the ONLY exposed plastic in my rig are the articulated industrial kneeguards behind the greaves (and they are gray against gray braccae (pants), and my EGG guantlets, which I love- best guantlets I have ever owned. Since they are black, they relatively unobtrusive.

It seems like a lot of the arguement against plastic armor in the SCA is that many people don't like the fact that someone wearing it is faster than they are. In that case, instead of taking away their toys, change the rules. I'd love to be able to balance protection vs. speed- I'd go tank.

Another consideration that has not been touched on is that we fight( most of us) in a much warmer climate than medieval europe had. Pennsic is almost always above 85F, often higher, when we fight. Lighter gear is good.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 11:42 am**

Owen,

I hate to say this, but your black plastic gauntlets ARE OBTRUSIVE.

There's a picture of MAnfred von Haalstren on p. 29 in Brian Price's book. It's a BW pic, and shows him in an incredible frog-mouthed helm with crest. Nice globose breastplate, good set of legs and greaves. And on the end of his arms are two Egg Armory, kydex meat paws, sticking out like the proverbial turds in a punch bowl.

That totally and completely stuck out and ruined the pic for me. All I could think about was, "He went to all that trouble to get beautiful armor, and he's wearing freakin' plastic mitts!!!"

Owen, you can do better. Your attitude is common throuout the SCA, which is why the SCA has a bunch of plastic armor in it. It's why so many people tolerate it and let our standards slowly fly out the window. It's also why we're a joke to all the living history organizations.

AS to the heat factor, I live in Calontir, and at Lilies the heat is often above 95, with 90% or better humidity. I shed my body armor when it gets hot, but you don't see me in plastic.

Save your plastic mitts for practice. At least get a decent set of metal gauntlets to go with a decent helm. These are the only pieces you can't hide. If you truly love armor and the middle ages, you will see what I mean.

[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 01-21-2001).]

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 1:17 pm**

However we are getting no where complaining about our mutual poverty we sound like rejects from a Monty Python skit. "I was so poor we lived in box in middle of the road."

...........................

Brennus , You're right,that sounds pathetic, besides that was almost 15 years ago...

" I walked to school, 10 miles, in a blizzard, uphill, bothways,barefoot, over broken glass, carrying my little brother on my back."

-----------------------------------------

Nomad...

What is the machine?
.............................

It's a simple winding and cutting jig my father built for me.

It's a wooden box aprroximately 3feet long by about 6 inches wide.
Has 2 rods and 2 drills.

One drill is the "winder" attached to the end of the rod.

the second drill is the Cutter, it's attached parrell to the winding rod and cuts with 4" fibreglass cuttoff wheels.

It's nothing "Mindboggeleing" unless you take into account that winding and cutting by hand , it would take a week or two to make enough rings for one maille shirt.
I just did 2 hauberks worth yesterday with this puppy.

My wife and I refer to it as "La Machine"

It winds, slices ,dices, and Juliens.

Takes 8 to 10 minutes to wind and cut 300 rings.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 1:46 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bascot:
Sorry, but obviously illiteracy is the reason YOU are on the bottom of the food chain. You obviously have poor communication skills, since your entire vocabulary rotates around one word.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, I used the word "fuck" 3 times in that post. A good cook uses a dash of salt to bring out the flavor in a recepie. A bad cook uses loads of salt to cover up the flavor in a recepie gone bad. I use a dash of fuck, and you call me illiterate. Now, if my spelling was terrible, my grammar was bad, or my meaning wasn't clear, then your claim of illiteracy would be valid. My post wan't anywhere near that. So instead, this is an attack by you regarding a post that wasn't targeted at you.

I have gotten an A in every college and high school english class that I've taken, save one where a teacher didn't like my opinions or dark topics. I can type 60-70WPM with little to no errors. I program for a living (due to certain details of my job and my life, I can't quit for a few months, or I would have a well-paying job by now). If you call that illiteracy, your writing must rival the works of Shakespeare himself! Please, send them to me, I do enjoy a good read!

When I was in the second grade, I started to swear... By the third grade, I was cussing like a sailor any time I was out of earshot of an adult who could do anything about it. A couple years ago, I decided to clean up my language. Now, the only time I cuss like that is when I'm angry, or when I'm around friends that cuss alot. I cleaned up the language of the post last night, but didn't have time to reply.

I am sorry for the language I used, and for posting in anger. I am not sorry for my opinion, or what I said regarding my opinion.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janos:
Now, as far as worrying about wondering where my next meal was comming from, etc... well, been there, done that. If that is someones current situation, they have NO buissness being involved in a hobby, unless of course you consider searching for a job (or a second one) a hobby<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I've got this little mental problem called "chronic depression", with a twist of suicidal tendency. If all I do is work, and I don't have a hobby to take my mind off shit, I die. No, I didn't post this because I want your pity. No, I don't need help. I can deal with this myself, and the SCA is one of my means of doing so.

chef de chambre, yes, somebody can build a hauberk for little money, but they STILL need to buy rigid elbow and knee protection, rigid sternum, kidney, floating rib, solar plexus, cervical vertabrae, and larynx protection. That's all covered by their plastic suit, for which they don't need a gambesson, they just need a camping pad. Which totals to about 40 hours of work plus 3 times the cost.

I'm all for authenticity, but when somebody calls me a LIAR and LAZY for using something that I can't upgrade for lack of money to do so, I get pissed, as you just witnessed.
--tom

[This message has been edited by Garridan (edited 01-21-2001).]

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 5:00 pm**

Well, I guess I'll get out my stick and beat on this dead horse for a while too. I mean talk about sawing sawdust. Oh well, here's
my thoughts....

I don't see money should be a problem in wearing white or blue plastic armour. With a little imaganation one should be able to get
plenty of sheet metal for free or next to free. When I firsty started I went to a sheet metal place and they let me go through their scrap bin for nothing. Same thing happened a few years ago. I was making some new stuff and wanted some 16 G. I went out to a scrap yard. Found some that would work, scrap from being cut, wasn't used. Asked how much, and they said forget it.

I wanted for six months after I joined the SCA to fight because I didn't have the gear.
made my own helmet, bought elbow and knee cops and made a coat of plates ala Wisby. Did it living in an apartment too.

I would live to think that the new plyers who show up in "bad" armour is because of ignorance rather than laziness. And I said ignorance as in lack of knowledge, not stupidity.

I have absolutely no problem with hidden plastic armour. I really think that most in the SCA don't.

I myself have always sort of considered the SCA to be the equivalent of grown up playing army ala sword and shield. So the mixing of times and armour types has never been a big problem for me. I myself, for myself as a history buff have tried to be accurate and have been costantly working at improving my kit. I still won't want someone out there counting the theards in my linen tunic to make sure that I have the right thread count.

Bjorn

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 5:34 pm**

Trevor wrote:

I hate to say this, but your black plastic gauntlets ARE OBTRUSIVE.

http://www.wolves-haven.philly1.com/owen.html

Here's what I look like geared up-the boots are more obtrusive than the arms and guantlets (I suppose I could paint them off-pink/beige). Considering that Roman Legionaries didn't wear arm armor, I figure I'm looking good. I could have gone with leather guantlets, but I've never found a design that worked well enough for polearm fighting (I like my hands with the factory number of parts). The kydex is also lighter than steel, and as I wouldn't in period have beeen wearing anything, the weight is an acuracy factor. Since this shot was taken, my left guantlet has been stolen, so it may be a moot arguement, as I'm using my old stainless pair now. I hate them, but they keep the bits from breaking.

Can you honestly look at my armor, and still say that my attitude is damaging the SCA?

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 7:12 pm**

This is one of those threads that has required a bit of abject boredom on my part to even open.
The contents, I find, are every bit as bad as I feared they would be.

I cannot even claim to have managed to read all of the posts to date.

I will however interject a couple of facts.

Butted mail is period to western europe. I posted a series of pics form Filipo Negroli to the archive a while ago. Horse and Duke armour...all in butted maille.

You can call it parade armour, you can call it tourney armour....but given our nature of combat, I think it is relevant. We are a tourney society or, more precisely a club tourney/melee society. What we stage are not REAL medieval wars or tourneys. That is part of the point. We help the other guy up and then go and have a beer with him after the tourney.
We tell "no shit, there I was....I got killed 17 times that weekend" stories and we do it within the context and the personna of the event.
The only way this can be justified is if we are a re-enactment of a tourney society.
Such societies definately DID use butted maille in their play.
(the only other pictured example I have of butted maille for combat use comes form the armpit area of a german gothic harness. I can post it on request...once I find out why my scanner has gone into a coma)

Richard.
Whatever wisdom Cariadoc has told you , hoever tempting it is to listen to Caridoc as if you were hearing the words of a particularly short but articulate deity....

Mark Carlson has many referneces and examples of wax-hardened leather in his studies.
the York archeological trust has been finding wax and pitch hardened stuff for over 15 years. Only a peice or two of it is suspected to be armour....but the techniques were definately in place form before the 1200's.
To me the difference between a wax-hardened bombard and a wax-hardened vambrace is whether or not you sew a round peice into the wide opening and add a handle.

Many shoes have traces of wax and pitch in the soles and also in the folds of the stitching.

I have seen a redacted recipe for making rot-proof leather by using salted wax. This dates from the 1400's. The method actually mentions that it is best suited to shoes, boats, and defenses of the body. It was Scottish, by the way.
No I cannot rememebr who showed it to me. I just remeber going "ewww...icky...but interesting. Wax based brine...hmmmm. Margaret, dear, even though this will smell REALLY bad, do you suppose I should....?"
The intensity of the "NO" kind of made me getting a photocopy of the article obsolete.

Sasha
Riverforge

....Plastic can be useful and legitmate if used wisely and with good craftmanship.
Safety, comfort, presentation on the field are all impotant factors in building ANY armour out of ANY material. Two out of three is never good enough.

That is the sum total statement that I have to offer on the thread's subject.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 7:22 pm**

Owen-

I do have to say that your field appearance is much better than I had envisioned. And you look better than a lot of guys out there. I appreciate the effort you have shown.

But, yeah, the Egg Armory gaunts still look like plastic. What else can I say?

You're right in saying that gauntlets aren't right for your period. But plastic? Come on, at least the Romans had steel.

I don't know what else to tell you, other than when I get on the field, I am playing Medieval Knights. I get a charge off of seeing someone who looks the part. I am certainly more into later period stuff precisely because when you dress in the later armor, you don't have to wear barfaces, you don't have to use basket hilts, you don't have to make compromises. You just see two guys that fell out of an Osprey book whacking each other. That's what gets it for me.

Is the SCA ever going to get to this level of authenticity accross the board? No, they're not. But I don't think it's too much to ask to not have to look at something so glaringly modern as Kydex.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 8:39 pm**

Well, Meinen Zwei Phennigs..... Plastic is good for starters.When i fight with the pages i have a large red Surcoat i wear over it. I understand plastic is ugly as hell, but it should be accepted. For the people who have been waring it from the beggining of time should be working on getting some steel on their kit. For those who are pissed about the plastic paladins ability to move faster and better should learn fight smarter.Let your plastic cladden opponent do all the fighting and you just stand there and defend yourself till they make a mistake.Right now i'm working on a chain haulberk to fit me and i'm already guessing its gonna take 600 to 800 ft of wire to make it. Some of the tools cost 20$ but the pliers are like 5$. At Home Depot for 100ft of 14 ga galvinized steel wire is 5$. Another add on to maille is that it takes a blue moon to make a maille piece especially if you have school and work in a day.

-------
"The blood on your sword is the blood of a King!"

Harold

[This message has been edited by Harold the Bear (edited 01-21-2001).]

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 8:44 pm**

My Final Comments about this whole subject:

Riiiight

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Omg! she swallowed a Quarter, old man says:ahh buh! children swallow Quarters all the time, the lady answers: They Do? , Yeah its when they crap out 2 dimes and a nickel is when you have to worry

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:25 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Harold the Bear:
...Right now i'm working on a chain haulberk to fit me and i'm already guessing its gonna take 600 to 800 ft of wire to make it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure about that Harold? I used an entire 1/4 mile (1320') and then some. And I'm only 6'1", 185lbs. You might want to ask some of the expert mail weavers on the board, but I'm pretty sure your going to need more wire than that to fit you.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:44 pm**

Well, I am EXTREAMLY disapointed in the lot of you! Narry a comment on my use of Christopher Reeves in full plate to illustrate my point. I was just sure that would cause a massive tangent to occurr. You've let me down.

Janos

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 11:26 pm**

Here's a thought,

If you do get ahold of SCA armor grade plastic for cheap or free, why not then "cover it" by riveting or otherwise attaching a thin (say 20 gage) "shell" over it.
You can buy 20 and 22 gage stove pipe and sheets in any hardware store? for little money, or better yet, just rip apart a junked refrigerator door.,strip off the paint and now you have thin gage armor with THICK, HIDDEN, Plastic lining.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2001 11:59 pm**

Hi Sasha.

Um, I was not talking about Cariodoc or questioning the authenticity of of wax hardened leather. That was DanNV and I was questioning his comment on the leather as I had never heard it challenged before.

As far as the butted mail, I am familiar with the Negroli. I know it was used in parade harness. I had never seen any definite documentation or extant period examples of butted mail being used in Western European field harness from the medieval period the SCA covers. There are some extant examples, but none with a clear provenance that I have seen, most are questioned as possible out of working life restorations.

As far as butted mail being used by in period tourney companies? I never heard of any documentation for that either. I am not disputing your assertation, in fact I would appreciate your posting the doc or references to the actual pieces, it would make me feel better about the butted pieces I own or which I have made in the past. But I disagree that there is no relevance to the distinction between parade, tourney and field harness. They can be very different animals and if nothing else I find the distinction important, it helps me to know which things are appropriate to which format, regardless of its effect on use in the SCA. One of the questioned pieces was large diameter mail on a standard for an armet, I think it was in the NY Met on one of the armored figures before they rebuilt the display and removed many of the questionable pieces and modern restorations, I could be wrong.

For example, for years people told me that Vikings and Western European knights NEVER fought with horns on their helmets. So out of curiousity I searched until I found horned crests for great helms (knights) and horned viking era helmets from the area. While it appears the Europeans used the horns for parade and for tourneys, I can't prove they used them in the field. It would appear the Vikings did not use the helmets I have found in combat, only for ceremonial use. While my interest may not have practical applications in the SCA, when a fighter asks me if they can put horns on their helmet or helm and be authentic, at least I can give them a little better advice than "Oh sure, absolutely" now.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 9:22 am**

On the whole poverty issue....if someone were destitute and poor I would htink the first peiority would be to get somewhere safe and secure, and not "what am I going to make armour with?". I would HOPE that a hooby like the SCA would be secondary to the truly destitute. But then again, not everyone shres the same realistic priorities I do.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:09 am**

As far as the poverty thing goes, I have a freind who is in school on a sports scholarship. Due to wonderful NCAA regulations, he CAN'T have a job. If he gets one, he gets kicked out. He doesn't have a lot of money to spend on this hobby but does the best he can. Since his sport only takes about 3 months (I don't think his college has to worry about playoffs or national championships) he has 9 months of the year he might like to spend doing something fun since he can't get a job. Improving your situation is not even a possibility for some people.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:28 am**

Amen, Nicolai.

Any hobby, be it boating, model railroading, fishing, golf, video games, or the SCA, will have investments of time and money. Each of them requires an initial outlay of basic equipment; its true of any hobby that has materials necessary or consumables that need restocked as you use them.

If you are at the level where you have to choose between the necessities of life and you hobby, you may want to consider backing off a bit. There are plenty of bystander activities that can be performed with the minimum of a tunic and site-fee.

Armour is expensive, there's no doubt about that. It cost me a lot to arm myself in a modest COP and stainless limbs. I did a great deal of the work myself, or it would have cost much more. But I could have done it cheaper by doing it all myself with lesser components.

Ron Simmons' pieces represent an easy way to bypass plastic to steel. If you have the means to drill and cut plastic and strap it then you have the means to strap elbows and leather bauzebands, form a COP, and attach polyens to padded uppers.

If you must have plastic, keep it covered.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 9:00 pm**

Trevor wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You're right in saying that gauntlets aren't right for your period. But plastic? Come on, at
least the Romans had steel.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but I think wearing steel guantlets would look worse on this suit than black plastic- the Romans didn't wear anything! How about I cover them with un-dyed 1 ounce leather, so they look more like skin? Frankly, from 10 feet out, all they look like is "black", not plastic. As for the arms, I was stuck with the color they came in.

Examples of Roman mail have been found that were half solid rings, punched from plate, and half butted, in alternating rows, although solid/riveted combo appears to have been more common.

As far as I can see, the SCA is NOT a tournement company; it has parts that sort of are, and parts that aren't. We have wars, and we have melee tourneys, two seperate things, and run very different. For one thing, our tourneys don't have fatalities. If you want to say our "wars" aren't real because we get to drink with our opponants later, then neither are the tournements.

As for plastic- I prefer it covered, but I don't want it banned outright, nor even required to be covered. I like laughing at the smurfs. As for you who want it banned, the SCA never will...bwoo-ha-ha-ha!!...Oh, I'm sorry, the Evil Laugh(tm) is supposed to be silent

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:09 pm**

I've seen some pretty cool looking "Spartans" who had body armor painted to look like, well, their body. It had skin-colored paint, shading and lines to make it look like muscles.

It was an effort, and I think that making your arms and gauntlets look like "skin" would be more in keeping the effort to maintain a more accurate appearance for a legionaire (now, about those boots...

) However, when push came to shove, it really did just look like painted plastic.

Like I said, the later period stuff is what _I_ like. I wish the early period stuff could be fought in without modification, but it can't; and that looks kinda hokey to me.

If you absolutely have to go with an early period personna (pre-600 at that!) then you're stuck with something that is less-than-accurate. Your call, but as I said, it doesn't trip _MY_ trigger.

(For the record: you are completely in charge of tripping your own trigger. Trevor in no way assumes any responsibility in trigger tripping.)

As to tournaments: You're right. The SCA isn't a tournament company. The reason the the tournament companies were formed was to provide a place for people like me who really got off on the authenticity aspect of our sport and a had love for period chivalric enterprise. If the SCA didn't have such lax standards of dress and armor, there wouldn't be a need for the tournament companies.

For St. Gabriel, we were formed on the premise that we would show others in the SCA just how cool it would be if we could focus our efforts to produce a tournament as it really might have been. In other words, we want to experience what it would have been like to have been back in history.

That necessitated that we come from the same time and place in history. In Europe, around 1364, there were no Vikings, no Samurai and no Landsknechts. (note, I have armor and garb for all of these, I am not biased!) Just Burgundians, English, Franks, Flemish, etc. Looking around at one of our tournaments and seeing people all off of the same page in history is truly magical. That magic will never be created in the everyday SCA.

AS for you, Owen, if you want to be a Roman, even if it is pre-600, I don't see how that throws off the "believability" issue of our events; because seeing a Viking next to a Landsknecht pretty much screws that all to hell, anyway. (Not to mention the fact that none of which would ever have been seen at a tournament in period, ya know?)

But fer crissakes, man, PLASTIC? Give me a break, will ya? There is no good reason to see it on the field.

Besides, it's just plain TACKY! Yuck!

[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 01-22-2001).]

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:18 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Owen:
Trevor wrote: I'm sorry, but I think wearing steel guantlets would look worse on this suit than black plastic- the Romans didn't wear anything! How about I cover them with un-dyed 1 ounce leather, so they look more like skin? Frankly, from 10 feet out,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately if I am fighting you I'm not ten feet away.

------------------
sic locus dignum, sic dignus placitum http://www.hci.net/~brennus

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:44 pm**

Brennus wrote:

Unfortunately if I am fighting you I'm not ten feet away.

Very true, but if you are examining my armor while less than 10 feet from me in a fight, you are SO toast.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It was an effort, and I think that making your arms and gauntlets look like "skin" would be
more in keeping the effort to maintain a more accurate appearance for a legionaire (now,
about those boots... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd love to wear caligae, but the marshals would have cows-I'm working on a toecup to wear inside them. And I didn't make the arms, they came that way. Give 'em another year, the scuffing will take off the black. I came up with "cover with flesh covered leather" while wroting that post, i may do it.

Please, folks, I'm on your side- I do try to cover plastic as much as practicle for me, or hide it (how noticable are the gray knees?). I just get really tired of the anti-plastic rants- it does have a place in the game. That, or make yourself a steel cup. 'Til then, no one gets to bitch about hidden plastic, fair enough?,

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 11:17 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trevor:
Owen, you can do better. Your attitude is common throuout the SCA, which is why the SCA has a bunch of plastic armor in it. It's why so many people tolerate it and let our standards slowly fly out the window. It's also why we're a joke to all the living history organizations.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fly out the window? Have you looked at pics from 30 years ago? 20 years ago? 10 years ago? Things look better now than they did then, and continue to slowly improve. I don't see how you can say standards are flying out the window. 10 years from now, things will be better than they are now, but not by forcing people to change or whining because they aren't doiung things way someone wants them to. Things change because someone leads by example and other people decide something more period looks cool.

Dan

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2001 11:31 pm**

Owen quote: "As for plastic- I prefer it covered, but I don't want it banned outright, nor even required to be covered. I like laughing at the smurfs. As for you who want it banned, the SCA never will...bwoo-ha-ha-ha!!...Oh, I'm sorry, the Evil Laugh(tm) is supposed to be silent"

Ok, you just lost my vote (kidding).

So, since your plastic is black, this would make you a black smurf? BTW I can get closer than 10' and look at your plastic armour without being toast! Been there, done that. HeeHee.

Actually Owen, while I like what you are doing with your kit and your limited use of black plastic is less noticeable and therefore less obtrusive than most, it is still plastic and detracts from your appearance. I like some of your ideas for covering it up though, flesh colored leather. I never thought of that. It was great seeing you at Twelth Night too.

I am curious though, I though SCA period starts from after the fall of Rome. Does this make you a fallen Roman? Or did they find you in a Glacier and thaw you out?

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2001 9:53 am**

Richard wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So, since your plastic is black, this would make you a black smurf? BTW I can get closer
than 10' and look at your plastic armour without being toast! Been there, done that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not when I had my spear, you haven't

And the guantlets are the only piece of black plastic on me-the arms are leather.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am curious though, I though SCA period starts from after the fall of Rome. Does this
make you a fallen Roman? Or did they find you in a Glacier and thaw you out?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Iupitor Optimus Maximus, not this one again! No where in Corpora is there listed a lower time limit, just that the SCA "concentrates" on the middle ages. If people have problems with a well-dressed Roman Legionary, I think there are a bunch out there that need your attention first. Where else can I bash with 3,000+ fighters?

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:14 am**

Actually I thought the time period is 600 to 1600 (or the death of Elizabeth depends on who you ask)
so LATE Roman would still be within period, just...
Realisticly it could be said that the end of the Empire was in 565 with the death of Emporer Justinian, but some say that the Eastern Roman empire still existed after the Lombards, a Germanic sect invaded in 568 and Italy was divided between them, The Eastern Roman Empire and the Papalcy.
So if people can get away with Cavalier, he can get away with a few years too early in Roman, and justify it.
IMHO

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:54 am**

Yeah, but I still like the image of Owen On Ice. You have to understand, he is a master brewer. I like the idea of opening my fridge and having Owen hand me a homebrew. Kind of like the refrigerator on that Dinosaur Sitcom where they would open the fridge and the live food would pass out other food in order to avoid being devoured.

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:05 pm**

"Christopher Reeves would take a bit of work to dispatch if he were wheeled out onto the field in late 15th cent plate. As it is, in the SCA, give him a golf tube shooting bow let him hold the string in his teeth (hey, its only 30lbs) and he can take out the heaviest armoured fighter on the field. Something just wrong about that."

What a bunch of hipocrytes! There is no one's armor in the SCA that would stand up to my 70lb long bow. I have hunted for years with it and I can guarantee I can put a yard long shaft into your ribs right through your unperiod stainless "knight in shining armor" breastplate. As for plastic, it is no less period than stainless or all those aluminium armors out there. All that needs to be done is to cover it. There are many examples of covered armor in history and the SCA.

Everyone knows the standard of armor, even when they take it upon themselves to spend the time or money to aquire solid plate. Which is not what everyone wants to do.

You people are probable also some of the ones wearing shoes and boots with heals while trying to recreate the 15th cent. -In case you don't know heals didn't appear until 1560.

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:30 pm**

um Ian....that was a joke.....

Richard, Please read my thread on the Renactment page about being flamed.

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:50 pm**

I don't think you'll send any "yard-long shaft" through most plate armour, Ian. I, too, own and shoot bows, and my hunting bow exceeds yours in draw weight. Over the years, I've shot at most of the armour I own, plus countless other pieces of steel (usually 16ga/14ga mild, like my armour, and that of most other SCA members), and have had little success. Longbows aren't the wonder weapon some people make them out to be. I would be confident indeed of victory if I were facing down a longbowman while encased in my plate harness, just a would a man-at-arms so equipped in period.

The Armour Archive

I don't think plastic should be banned