Are the gloves in the Churburg gauntlets original?

[James B.]

I an researching gloves to make some proper ones for my gauntlets for lining history use; while looking at my copy of The Churburg Armoury By Carlo Paggiarino I noticed that one pair of the late 14th/early 15th century hourglass shaped gauntlets have what looks like a two layered linen glove in them now backed with leather for display. Also a pair of 16th century gauntlets have a bifurcated glove attached.

So does anyone know if these gloves in the Churburg gauntlets original?

[Otto von Teich]

I'm not sure, but I think they very well might be. Most of that stuff seemed untouched, ( not monkeyed with) for centuries. IIRC it seems the current Counts mother or grandmother did some minor restorations and repairs years ago to them. I know they are very, very old, they might be original, but I'm not sure. Thats not much help. Hmmm, why did I even respond? I know nothing for certain.

[Tom B.]

I an researching gloves to make some proper ones for my gauntlets for lining history use; while looking at my copy of The Churburg Armoury By Carlo Paggiarino I noticed that one pair of the late 14th/early 15th century hourglass shaped gauntlets have what looks like a two layered linen glove in them now backed with leather for display. Also a pair of 16th century gauntlets have a bifurcated glove attached.

So does anyone know if these gloves in the Churburg gauntlets original?

You need to ask this over on the AAF.

Tom

[Mac]

James,

I don't think there is any reason to doubt the authenticity of the gloves at Churburg. As Otto said, they have been conserved "in house" in the early 20th C.; but considering how many textile components in other collections have simply been ripped out and thrown away, I have nothing but praise for the Gräfin von Trapp's needlework.

Mac

[James B.]

Thanks Mac, I wonder if I write the museum if they could provide some details on the gloves construction.

[Mac]

James,

I think your best bet by far would be to ask Carlo Pagiorini. For every pic that made it into his book, he will probably have another thirty or so. Perhaps some of them will show the seam lines in a way that makes it possible to reconstruct the cut of the gloves. (Please keep me posted. I'm interested in gloves as well)

Mac

[James B.]

Tom PMed me as suggested the same thing

This all stems from La Belle meetings, I have been compiling info on mittens and they are looking at 5 fingered gloves for gauntlets and now I am interested.

The oldest pair of five fingered gloves I have a good photo of are the Henry VI pair but they are lined so all the seams are saddle stitched and then turned. I am curious how cloth gloves would be assembled and if the 16th c bifurcated gloves have any gores in the fingers (Some of the seams are hard to see in the image in the book).

[Mac]

James,

I see what you mean. The pic of the bifurcate mitten in Carlo's book does not let us see what we need to see.

On the other hand, I think it very likely that that glove *does* have fourchettes (gussets). My reconnection is that the "split mittens" I looked at in the Met's reserve had them. (I would have to find my notebook to be sure) I certainly put them in the prototypes I was working on at around that time.

I think the fourchettes are really a necessity. Without them the glove would be tight in the "crotches" of the fingers. It's sort of like the armpits of a "T-tunnic". Yea, you *can* make them that way, but it's not real tailoring, and no one would be proud to do it that way.

(spelling edit)

Mac

[James B.]

The Met has a pair you say... I was already planning a trip to NYC this summer I may have to make and appointment to see these gloves.

Having made a number of split mitten gloves without forchettes (I was not sure how to spell that) I really do think they need them at least between the two fingers; I would also like to know if they use the fancy thumb you see in 5 finger gloves or do they use the simple thumb you see on mitten finds.

[Mac]

I've just looked at the pic (177) again. I now think that the lengthwise lines we can see in the palmar surface of the mitten's fingers are the seams of the fourchettes. The fourchettes are wider than I expected. Something unusual is happening where they end at the palm though. I wish I could see this better.

Mac

[Mac]

The Met has a pair you say... I was already planning a trip to NYC this summer I may have to make and appointment to see these gloves.

If I can find my notebook, I can get you the accession numbers. My recollection is that I looked at two pairs of split mittens, as well as regular mittens and five fingered gloves. They are in gauntlets, of course.

Mac

[James B.]

The Met has a pair you say... I was already planning a trip to NYC this summer I may have to make and appointment to see these gloves.

If I can find my notebook, I can get you the accession numbers. My recollection is that I looked at two pairs of split mittens, as well as regular mittens and five fingered gloves. They are in gauntlets, of course.

Mac

That would be awesome thanks.

I will have to look at the image on 177 again tonight, what you said makes sense; I was trying to figure out what those seems were I thought it was just pieced together construction but what you said makes more sense.

[Tracy Justus]

In a recent thread Ernst linked to a page of archaeological finds of medieval mittens and gloves. The second from the bottom is a 13th c glove with fourchettes. Not an answer to your question but I hope it helps.

-- Tracy

[Mac]

James,

I found that notebook. It turns out I only looked at one gauntlet with a split mitten. It is a (left) Maximilian mitten called 29.158.228 I made a sketch of what the parts of the glove must have looked like.

I have scanned the pages, but when I try to post them I get the ..

The Attachment/Image must be less than 1200 pixels wide and 1200 pixels high

...message. Feh!


I will send them to you via email if you send me your address.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Another great resource from the AAF would be Matthias Goll he is the author of this book.

Here is an AAF threadabout his book.

I seem to recall him posting some photos showing orginal gloves.

Tom

[James B.]

I would gladly take it in an email flonzy@hotmail.com

Thanks for digging that up Mac.

[James B.]

In a recent thread Ernst linked to a page of archaeological finds of medieval mittens and gloves. The second from the bottom is a 13th c glove with fourchettes. Not an answer to your question but I hope it helps.

-- Tracy

Holy cow I missed your post when I was at work; there is some exiting finds in there!

[Tracy Justus]

Y'know, I said it was 13th c but it may be 14th century. I'm not sure of Norwegian dating conventions.

The link inspired me to make fancy mittens. I'm working on a pair taken from the one with the pierced work cuff. The fur lining is made and the outer is cut, I need to make a template for the piercework. Thanks for providing the link, Ernst.


Tracy

[James B.]

Tracy did you notice the marking for tunnel stitching on either side of the pierced work cuff and thumb. That indicates to me another strip of materiel was there to show through piercings. Since there is no material in the find I would assume it was cloth tunnel stitched there and it did not last.

[Tracy Justus]

Yes, I saw that. They will be red with blue silk under the piercings, lined in rabbit fur with mink cuffs. Snappy, eh?

T.

[James B.]

Yes, I saw that. They will be red with blue silk under the piercings, lined in rabbit fur with mink cuffs. Snappy, eh?

Sound nice! As soon as I saw that find I wanted to make them too, would go nice with my openwork shoes

[Otto von Teich]

Snappy looking and toasty warm!