The Armour Archive

Okay, Vitus, why exactly?

How Line-X goes on

Unless the truck bedders are likely to be better at it than you are through practice, it does not look much different from a quality paint job on metal.

Konstantin the Red wrote:Okay, Vitus, why exactly?

How Line-X goes on

Unless the truck bedders are likely to be better at it than you are through practice, it does not look much different from a quality paint job on metal.

I'm curious too.

Isabella's recent art (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater) has me thinking about putting some effort into a better looking shield.

What you guys call bedliner and line-x, etc. is a material technology called "polyurea". This is a two component elastomer that is far superior to epoxy, polyurethane and pretty much all coatings on the market. There is roller/brush applied slow cure versions that can be used for small home projects but I do not recommend anyone who hasnt got training to work with the stuff. The best stuff is high heat, high pressure material applied by very expensive machines. There are smaller cartridge systems supplied by different manufactureres but as I said, only trained people should use the stuff.

If you can paint a shield with flexible paint and have the correct, transparent polyurea system applied over it, it would be a *very* long life shield.

You can go on youtube and search for polyurea and see it being used in blast protection applications, covering phantom boat hulls, se it being beat up with sledge hammers and so on. It works, its not fake. I work with the stuff and have a lot of experience with different brands and manufacturers and have used it in many different applications.

There are many reasons why you should have training working with the stuff. I can mention a few.

You need to understand how the material reacts and cures and how to do surface preparation and what environment regarding humidity and temperature you need to have to get proper adhesion. There is also a lot of things going on like shrinkage during cooling after the exothermic reaction has taken place. It is not a paint, it does not act like paint and you dont know how to work with it just because you can spray paint from a can.

It is also hazardous, corrosive and it can give you lung failiure, permanent, synthetic asthma and a lot of other lovely health problems. Effects are different from person to person and there is no way of saying if you are the person that is sensitive and dies from being in the same room as a opened container or if you can deal with it your whole life and never have any problems.

Since its a technology, not just one material, there are literally thousands of variations in the materials. The brand companies usually work with one or a few systems. There are formulators that manufacture specific systems for specific applications where you customize the material properties to fit the certain application you are going to use it for. You need to have a material with the right elongation properties, hardness, abration resistance etc. for the application to get optimal result. For a shield, the bedliner material should work pretty well.

I've used 2 coats of Elmers on the outside of canvas over wood rather than gesso. It worked pretty well as a base for painting, and hasn't cracked or torn the canvas in years. I think I used latex paint on that.

LOVE the tech-talk and discussion, but have found that the actual longevity a shield is as much a function of where you live (i.e., the nature of your competition) and how much you fight as it is the specific technique you might employ in regards to painting and materials.

I think Logan is right in expecting no more than 2-3 years out've a shield paint job you use for regular fighting against strong competitors -- and that it is as important to make it as "cleanable" or "fixable" during that period as it is to make it "durable" and "lasting" across the period (e.g., glueing-up small rips in your canvas, or removing the tape smears from your clear cote).

Ultimately, you just gotta now the art is ephemeral, have realistic expectations about longevity, choose an approach likely to get you good longevity, but also capable of "repairs" during that period.

My $.02.

I defer to others WAY the hell more expert than me on the tech stuff... but I have found roughly equivalent longevity from painting directly on aluminum with some clear coat and cleaning it up occasionally as I have had with canvas applied (and glueing it up occasionally) -- though I have only sporadic familiarity with wooden shields and both of mine are Vitus shields I only use for very special occasions.

Max Von Halstern

And it's Thomas M. and Xtracted for the Resurrect! Yee haa!

The topic was relevant, current again, and I got a good answer. I have no regrets.

I think in a way you need to philosophically just see the shield as something that is an impermanent piece of art, like a really cool cake someone is going to come along and eat. The point of putting all the effort into something that is going to be destroyed is that it enriches it's environment while it lasts, bringing a lot of cool factor that will touch everybody who sees it and thus over time helping to elevate the game because it raises the bar just a little. I think you get a lot of mileage out of something like that but it's not immediately perceptible. Medieval people seem to me to represent this idea because they were in to all sorts of clever and decorative but disposable things that were only going to be used for one event. This is my current project:

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff34 ... 0929_n.jpg

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff34 ... 176_n1.jpg

Isebella, I can understand the point you are making, but the reality is that people do not often want to pay what the shield-painting is worth because of its rapid deterioration. At least that is my experience. The very fact that it will be destroyed makes people want to spend less than its worth to do a good job.

I have frequently had to reduce my ability to go fast enough to justify the price I can charge so the customer feels like they are paying too much.

Thoughts?

owen matthew wrote:Isebella, I can understand the point you are making, but the reality is that people do not often want to pay what the shield-painting is worth because of its rapid deterioration. At least that is my experience. The very fact that it will be destroyed makes people want to spend less than its worth to do a good job.

I have frequently had to reduce my ability to go fast enough to justify the price I can charge so the customer feels like they are paying too much.

Thoughts?

I charge an upfront price. That way they know how much it costs.
I don't get may commissions, but then again, I'm not trying to feed my family on my shield painting ability.

I think the DIY factor figures in there too. If I am going to pay something to somebody to do something, even if that pay is barter, what I am receiving needs to be better than I can do myself.

I probably under charge but my rate is $10/hour, which is the same rate I charge for banners and casting, with maybe a material charge as well. I would not try and support myself doing it, but I still get an occasional commission. People know when they pay me to paint something for them they will get something unique and special. I don't expect everybody to want to do it, or be able to do it themselves. If you can do it yourself then really what you are choosing to do is invest your own time and energy into something special and personally I feel it's absolutely worth it.

Even the banners I make for people won't last forever. I will not do half assed work and send it out though. So I don't expect everyone to be able to afford a custom shield painting from me that is like some of the ones I've done in the past but I can paint someone's arms and maybe a motto and do it well for a reasonable price. I'm not even going to be using the one I'm making right now for fighter practice. It's going to be for tourneys, demos or any time where I am really out to make an impression. My practice shield is in the press right now and will just have my arms and motto on it. It will look good but it will take me a day to paint instead of 50+ hours.

I guess the last thing I would say about it is that you don't need to use an incredible piece of art shield for every day practice. I would just tell people they need to do SOMETHING with their practice shield so at least it doesn't look like scrap metal with some garden hose on it. Because we often practice in public and use it as a recruiting tool, put a decent amount of effort into your every day shield. Cover the back with some fabric or paint it and do something with the front. Even if it's just your arms. Anything is better than a bent up old aluminum scrap sign that everyone can tell used to say YIELD on it.

InsaneIrish wrote:

owen matthew wrote:Isebella, I can understand the point you are making, but the reality is that people do not often want to pay what the shield-painting is worth because of its rapid deterioration. At least that is my experience. The very fact that it will be destroyed makes people want to spend less than its worth to do a good job.

I have frequently had to reduce my ability to go fast enough to justify the price I can charge so the customer feels like they are paying too much.

Thoughts?

I charge an upfront price. That way they know how much it costs.
I don't get may commissions, but then again, I'm not trying to feed my family on my shield painting ability.

So do I. and so do I.

Isabella, I would never give somebody crap, but I have never been given the resource to do my best either. There is a lot of room between your best and your worst, and that is dictated by time. If someone does not want to pay much for time then that kind of narrows down the options on what you could deliver, right?

I've never had anybody ask me to paint a shield like the ones I've posted and not be willing to pay an appropriate price. I have only had a couple of them though and the number of people who have asked me about it I can count on one hand. My prices are incredibly reasonable considering though. I just don't think people can or want to pay a real world rate for commissioned art. As a part time artist and freelancer I accept that my rate is incredibly low in comparison.

I think most people are used to cheap goods anyway and that hurts every craftsman's ability to charge what their work is actually worth.

Some people are not even willing or able to pay what I charge for custom banners, which are dirt cheap! I have had plenty of people never contact me after inquiring about pricing, or back out AFTER I've done all the design work. And there have been a few banner makers who make theirs for even cheaper than me, which I don't get at all. :/

Isabella's art is, by far, one of the best deals imaginable.

What you get for what you pay is nearly inconceivable (in honor of the 25th Anniversary of Princess Bride).

However, more than most things (since hers is largely art for the "field"), if you can't afford to break, damage, or lose it... then it owns you and you don't own it.

I know the Archive tends to be a place where we place an often inappropriate emphasis and importance on "things" -- but here, especially, we must remember that they are not only things, but usually things meant to be used and used hard.

I am often correcting people that I'm not a "Knight in Shining Armor", but rather a "squire in scuffed-up armor", as mine is meant to be and is used and used often. I got nice armor (in increasingly nice steps over 30 years), but I did so knowing it was going to be ruined over time, and because I am *willing* to lose it. In that regard, I own it and it doesn't own me.

I do believe this relates quite directly to franchise -- dress TO your station, not above it. If you cannot afford to stain, spoil, ruin, lose, break, or destroy a possession, then you are not free... you are possessed by that which you should, in fact, own.

That is NOT to suggest you seek to wantonly destroy beauty or waste things... merely that you shouldn't seek to gain possessions which you are not willing to lose.

And perhaps focus less on the stuff on the outside and more on the stuff on the inside. I believe the folks you impress with the inside qualities prove better friends than the folks you only impress with the outside stuff.

Max Von Halstern

My Tourney shield is leather faced. I painted with oils. Took a LONG time to dry (15 days?) but has proven to be very durable and easy to touch up. Colors have remained bright throughout its life thus far.

Eventually I'd like to construct a shield using historical methods and paint it the same way.

Dont know if anyone has suggested this, but I screen print my arms on heavy black canvas and glue it to the shield. (or contact cement if using an alum. shield)

I've seen some people doing screen printing like that. It's cool but not something I'm personally interested in because I have the painting chops to do it myself and I get immense satisfaction out of the act of the painting itself. But I would not fault anyone that wanted to do a more modern approach if the result is really cool. Not everybody has the time/desire/energy to do everything themselves.

Kinda funny to hear screen printing called modern . Its kinda been around for a while. Though Ill concede I use modern (ish) equipment / ink / ect.

I've got the painting chops as well, but silk screening is a clever solution for those that don't.
Plus, once you have the screen, it can used for other purposes, like surcotes and such.