Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Well, I figured I'd show these off, since I just finished welding, grinding, and polishing them up tonight.

A set of 8 stakes and one stake holder. Two different radiused curves, a miniature bickhorn, a gadling stake, a knuckle stake, a fluting stake, a fingertip stake, and a creasing stake. You can probably already guess what I've got planned for these...





Yup. Going to be trying my hand (heh...) and making a pair of hourglass gauntlets. As you can see, I've already got my design down. They're influenced from the extant Bargello, Churburg, and Wallace gauntlets:
Bargello
Churburg
Wallace
Other Bargello

The designs have been drawn to scale, and the width of the cuffs to accomodate the range of motion needed. I kept a careful eye on the different angles from each side, both to match my RoM, and the extant pieces' shape...because personally, I think having too widely flared of a cuff looks modern and goofy.

I already drafted up my pattern, though I need to scale it up about 7% to accomodate my gloves. Since I'll be working these cold, I'm going to weld the cuff to the hand, and hide the weld under the brass.

The body, knucklebow, and fingers will be made from 16 ga. mild, mostly because I've got a sizeable stack of the stuff lying around, so I won't feel too bad if I fudge these up. The brass gadlings and decoration will be of 18 ga. brass; I'm relying on the extensive shaping to the gadlings to resist deforming. Also, the finger lames will have a subtle crease along the length, to also resist deformation.

Since I'm planning on using these for SCA, I've made a few alterations to the design. First, the thumbtip will be enclosed, and hard articulated. The index and pinky fingers will ground out on the haft, to prevent crushing, while the inner fingers will only have the tops plated. Lifted that idea from Nissan's gauntlets, which incorporate the same design. I feel its a best-of-both-worlds approach, allowing me to protect my fingers, while still letting me comfortably grasp my weapon without a 1/4 inch of steel between each finger.

Naturally, the gloves will be stitched into the gauntlets; I've never liked how straps over the fingers and palm interfere with one's grip. Felt padding. The brass decoration will have punch-, file-, and wigglework throughout, as seen on the extant pieces.

I'll take better pictures of the stakes tomorrow, and of course I'll be posting progress pictures as I go along.

I hope this will prove informative to any newcomers. I know I'm in for a learning experience!

ETA: Oh, advice is always welcome! Things such as what weight of leather to use for the straps that the fingers are riveted to, where I can get brass nails or similar to use as rivets, what type of steel nails to use for the other rivets, gentle suggestions to quit while I'm ahead and pay someone else to do it...

[Graham Ashford]

Those drawings look jolly spiffy a work of art in themselves, even if the final product where to get just half way there you'll have a lovely set of gauntlets. I'm already looking forward to seeing the project progress, best of luck mate ... just wish my drawings came out that well, I suppose not working off the back of an envelope might be a start for me.

Kindest regards

Graham

[Halberds]

Cool tools, and I agree the drawings are very nice.
Now we look foward to seeing your gaunts.

Hal

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Graham, if my work ends up even looking a fraction as good as yours does, I'll be well pleased with myself. Glad you like the drawings, and I hope to make my gauntlets live up to the plans.

Hal, thank you for the inspiration for the tools. I likely wouldn't have figured out a couple of those shapes without your experience and generous postings here.


Now, onto today's progress.

Lessons learned so far (and old lessons reinforced):
-Buy a throatless shear. Cutting out a piece with a hammer and chisel is only novel the first time.
-Don't leave your ear protection in the house, and figure that "this one bit of hammering won't hurt..." My ears rang for a good hour afterwards.
-Patience. Hitting it harder is not always the best solution, especially when finishing up flutes and creases.
-Don't hit your piece with anything sharp, unless you just really like excessive amounts of planishing.
-Don't make your forming stakes too short to actually get into the piece.
-Innovation. I found about 5 different ways to use my new stakes for extra purposes while trying to get into tight spots.
-Hit it everywhere. Seriously, it gives a level of cohesive flow you just don't get by simply curling and dishing.
-Don't be afraid to deviate from the plan. You get more pleasant surprises this way.
-Take a Rt. 44 Sonic cup. Fill it with water. Drink from it often. As long as you're working, I promise you're going to need every drop of it. Staying hydrated = no dehydration headache. This is a very good thing.


Okay! Progress pics:

We begin with my highly refined and efficient cutting process.

.....yes, I used a chisel to cut out the piece. Throatless shear is the next item on the shopping list, when I have some more play money.

A half-hour of cutting and deburring, and about 20 minutes of pounding later rendered this.



...and that's what I stopped with, and now they're strapped up with duct tape and ready to fight in!














Okay, I kid, I kid.

About 6 hours of hammering, chiseling, and planishing after that, and this is what I've come up with...







And just for you folks, a gratuitous interior shot!





All in all, not too shabby for my first day at my first try, in my opinion. Of course, I realize I made a cardinal sin of armouring...I didn't work on the pair at the same time! To be perfectly honest, by the time I finished chisel-cutting this first piece, I was too impatient to get hammering to spend another 30 minutes cutting out its mate.


So, that's it for day one of the gauntlet project (not counting the research, drawing, etc.) Total time actively working in shop: 7 hours.
Thoughts, comments, advice, thrown popcorn from the gallery? I'd love to hear some suggestions from anyone who has done this before, and some insight on things such as what type of leather to attach the fingers to, where I can get some brass harware to rivet the brass decorations on, and what best to use for any steel rivets.

That's all for tonight; tune in tomorrow to see the next progression!

[Signo]

Pay attention to your "proposed" wrist line in your gauntlet, the pair that I had the chance to touch and meausure (at the Stibbert museum) had not a linear wrist line, but the cuff emerged from the metacarpal where it was needed, a little forward on the top, a little behind near the thumb, more sharp there and more smooth on the outside and the bottom. This just to say to take care to not force yourself to make a perfect flat oval were you plan to put your weld, or, if you do, work this part afterward to make it blend more organically.

I know that you plan to cover the wrist with a wristband, but take a look at it anyway, then you decide what to do.
(anyway I will cut away a thin moonslice from the top of the metacarpal).

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Thanks, Signo! I'll go back and take another look at my wrist line, though I indeed do plan to blend the line between hand and cuff, once I've welded them together.

[jarlragnar]

Nice work. Can't wait to see these come together.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Finished up the mate to the first today. I would have had it up yesterday, but I spent the day herding cattle, and had some fun with heat exhaustion later that evening, so I was only in the shop for about 30 minutes.

At any rate, the second naturally went together faster than the first. Took me about 5 hours, as opposed to the 6 for the first. And its prettier...dangit. Going to have to tweak the first, to bring it up to par.

I'll work on the cuffs later tonight; that should go together rather quickly.

[Halberds]

So far so good me thinks, I like gaunts.

Are the working surfaces of your stakes 4140 or the same 1018/A36 shank stock?
I have found welding 4140 onto the 1018 to be beneficial.
A nice quench after welding hardens it quite nice.

Hal

[Mac]

KI,

Those are coming along nicely.
Let me advise you to do the rough grinding of the grooves before you weld the cuffs on. It will go easier that way.

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Thank you kindly, Hal! I'm quite happy with their progression so far.

The stakes are overall 1018 stock. One, because its what I had on hand, but also because it allows me to tweak the shape of the stakes easily as I figure out what I need. For instance, I'd like to regrind the face of that fluting stake to a shallower angle, with a curved edge instead of the flat one it has now.

But I will definitely remake these with 4140 heads on them once I've got the dimensions and finer points of their shape tweaked. The knuckle and creasing stakes in particular have already been blunted by the work I've done so far.

You grind and shape the heads before welding to the 1018, is that right? How do you safely work the heads? Do you shape and polish, then cut the head from the 4140 stock, then weld and quench?

[Keegan Ingrassia]

KI,

Those are coming along nicely.
Let me advise you to do the rough grinding of the grooves before you weld the cuffs on. It will go easier that way.

Mac

Thank you, and yessir, I'd come to that conclusion as well. I've been filing the grooves and knuckles this afternoon to sharpen and tweak the shape, before I go at it with the grinder and sanding disks.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Just a small progress update tonight, gents. Here, I've finished planishing and fine-tuning the main bodies, and have done an initial sanding. Thank you for the suggestion for that, Mac; it would have been a bear trying to get into those grooves with the cuffs in place. Thankfully no low spots, so I didn't have to replanish any areas. Next up is cutting out and shaping the cuffs, matching up the edges, and welding them together.

Then all that's left to do is grind the welds, make the fingers, cut the brass, do all the decorative work, polish, assembly, touch-up polish, interior paint, and sew in the gloves. Whew!

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Another short update tonight, before crawling into bed. Gotta stop these 5am nights...

So, another lesson learned. Absolutely get your paper patterns right -before- moving to metal! I did not do this. I got it close, then kinda squished it together, shrugged, and said 'close enough'.


.....that 'close enough' turned a 2 hour job into a 6 hour job, trying to get the edge of the body and cuff to properly match. I ended up having to heavily flare and grind the lip of the cuff so it was large enough to weld to the body, then spread and flare the rest of the cuff out to raise the transition line back up on the hand and off the bones of the wrist. And it still looks off...gonna have to keep working on it. I know the brass bracelet will hide a multitude of sins, but I want it looking right -before- I tack on the shiney.

Tomorrow I'll get the second cuff done, provided I can escape out to the shop.

[Lucian Ro]

Damn fancy

[Halberds]

Yes, so far so good.
I'm glad to see you tracking your hours.
It is educational for folks to see the amount of time required for a project like this.

On the 4140 tool heads.
The basic shape is saw cut with a carbide blade.
Then the working surface is welded to the shank and quenched.
The final grinding is done after welding with the quench bucket near by.

Thanks for the progress pics as this my favorite sort of thread.

Hal

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Thanks mates!


I tried a different approach to the second cuff, by altering my pattern. It drastically reduced the amount of time I spent. Last night's cuff took 6 hours. This cuff? 2.5 hours. Get your patterns right, kids! It makes a huge difference in time saved.




I figure I'll work on the fingerbow next, and get that shaped up and articulated on bolts, then move on to getting the thumbs worked out. From there, its onto the fingers and getting into the brass.

Which reminds me; I've dug up the nails I'm going to use for the steel rivets on the fingers. I'm still going to need to go browse the local tractor supply tomorrow, to see if I can't find some brass nails for the brass parts. Would y'all say 3oz. leather is good for the straps the fingers get riveted to? Or should I bump that closer to 6oz?

[Mac]

KI,

You may want to use brass wire, rather than headed rivets, to hold the brass work in place. It's the authentic thing to do.

I posted on this topic a while ago viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94776&p=1321110

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

KI,

You may want to use brass wire, rather than headed rivets, to hold the brass work in place. It's the authentic thing to do.

I posted on this topic a while ago viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94776&p=1321110

Mac

I was afraid that would be mentioned. I've done it before in jewelry work, but was hoping for an easier (read, lazier) method.

But, since its the historically-appropriate method, and I've plenty of experience doing it, I'll go and buy some more brass wire for myself.

Thanks again, sir.

Edit to add: Oh, I was absolutely going to flush set on the outside, whether I used brass wire, or a brass nail with the head on the inside. I already did as much on the two rivets on the cuff and body of the gauntlet, where they overlap.

[Mad Matt]

I could be wrong here. But from your drawings to the pics of where you're at it looks like the thumb needs to come out a bit when looking directly at the back of the hand. It also looks like the portion at the finger end of things where stuff turns downward is a little long. the metacarpal seems a little long overall. Are you planning to take a little off there? Looks like about 1/8" at the fingers and a little more around the web of the thumb. You can shave it down with a grinder pretty easily.

They're looking fantastic though.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Thanks for the insight, M-Matt.

The drawings are a bit off, in terms of where the thumb splays out. I actually worked up those drawings from a tracing of my hand, where my hand was flat. The gaunts have the thumb tucked under further, which fits my hand better when grasping a haft.

The end of the finger portion is a little long, I agree. I'll take a grinder and shave that 1/8" off. I was considering leaving the web of the thumb long, to ground to the haft, but now that I think on it, there isn't really a good reason to do that. And it throws off the look. I'll take a grinder to those areas, as well.

[Mac]

KI,

I think Matt is about right. All of the edges of the metacarpals look a bit long, and the thumbs might well be a bit "tight". As you begin fitting the thumbs and the fingers, you will see what should be trimmed.

You might think about working on the thumbs before you work on the other fingers. In a very real sense, the thumb has dominion over the way the gauntlet sits on the hand. When they are right, the gauntlets sit properly on the hands. When they are wrong, they cause the gauntlets to shift around until thumbs are in the correct places, at the expense of the rest of the hand.

Making the thumbs, and setting them in place temporarily will tell you whether or not the thumb stalls have to be altered.

As to the question of grounding against the weapon hilt.....I have found it to be undesirable on several counts. It is functionally unnecessary. It spoils the authentic lines. It ruins the weapon hilt. Worst of all, it tends to let the web of the thumb get pinched between the gauntlet and the weapon; the resulting blood blisters being in the name of "safety".

All in all, you are doing a fine job.

Mac

[Otto von Teich]

Mac, You and I think alike when it comes to "grounding' on the hilt. Its refreshing! Most people wont pay any attention to me. maybe they'll listen to you!

[Mac]

KI,

Here are a couple of pics of an incomplete gauntlet from my "land of lost projects". It's got mitten fingers, of course, but the body of it and the thumb are fundamentally what you are doing.

Note particularly how much closer the lines of it are to your sketches than to your gauntlets as they currently are. I think that your sketch is more like where you want to be.









I hope this is helpful to you.

Mac

[Mac]

Mac, You and I think alike when it comes to "grounding' on the hilt. Its refreshing! Most people wont pay any attention to me. maybe they'll listen to you!

Thank you, Otto. I've been shouting in the wilderness about this for close to thirty years.

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Thank you very much for the help, sirs. As long as I'm taking the time, I should make sure they're right.

After studying your examples, Mac, and going back and looking over my sketches, I marked up some new edges on the pair. Let me know what you think?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32594982@N ... hotostream


http://www.flickr.com/photos/32594982@N ... hotostream


http://www.flickr.com/photos/32594982@N ... hotostream


http://www.flickr.com/photos/32594982@N ... hotostream





I realize I'm probably being a bit conservative on the marks for removal, but I'd rather that, than remove too much. Easier to take off than add on, after all.

[Mac]

KI,

The proposed cuts are, as you say, pretty conservative. This is good. You can always came back and take some more away.

Don't forget to take the same amount off your templates. Or at the very least, mark the changes on the templates and make some notes about what the lines mean. Ether way, it will serve you when you come to make the next pair.

The only line that worries me is the one from the first knuckle to the web of the thumb. That one seems a bit deep. I personally like that line to be a bit on the straight side. I think your proposed line will look and work OK, but you might want to approach it in stages to be sure. Get some thumbs roughed out and tape everything to your hands and see how you feel. Some of it will come down to a question of what you want to have as a weapon. The flatter line (that I like) is optimized for a real sword hilt. A rounder line (like you drew) might serve you better with pole weapons.

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Thanks for the help, sir.

I'll be sure and alter the templates, along with some notes as to why.

I see what you mean, as to the line along the web of the thumb. I'll mark a more conservative line there, and wait to begin cutting until after I get the thumbs roughed in. As a general-purpose pair of gaunts, I'll likely be using these until I either remake them in spring, or they're too battered to use. With that in mind, I think I'll shoot for an arc somewhere between the flat and round. Or, perhaps hint towards the asymmetrical, with the sinister more suited to a sword hilt, and the dexter leaning towards use on a polearm. That is, of course, if it isn't too anachronastic for the late 14th.

[Count Johnathan]

What a cool project! Thanks for sharing the progress pics. Can't wait to see them finished!

[Mac]

with the sinister more suited to a sword hilt, and the dexter leaning towards use on a polearm.

I knew you were left handed! Only a lefty sketches his right hand, and makes the left gauntlet first.

Mac

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Keeg, Nice tools! I love the sketches and your hammerwork looks NICE. Keep up the great work.


Take care

Andy @ Pitbull Armory

[audax]

Great gooly mooly!

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Thanks all for the kind words!
Mac, you've got to be in your right mind, to be left handed.
I've been a bit preoccupied with other business this last month, but I have been able to work a bit more on these, this past week.


I cleaned off my steel (sitting in an un-air conditioned shop = rust) and marked out my templates for all the finger pieces...48 in all.

...whew! No way am I pounding those out of the sheet with a cold chisel!






Ahh.....that's better! I picked this up as a gift to myself, after getting paid. It used to take half an hour to cut one piece out with a cold chisel. With this, I cleaned off my steel, cut it in half, marked my templates, cut out four pieces, deburred the edges, and began rough-shaping...in an hour. Which meant that only about 5 minutes of that was spent cutting out the first four pieces. This makes for a very happy Keegan. Also, for happy hands and eardrums, to not have to beat upon the steel with a chisel, trying to cut it.





So, after piddling around in the shop a couple different afternoons (for roughly 8 hours altogether), this is where I've gotten so far.



Pieces are dry-fit, currently. I'm waiting for the MIG welder to be returned, so I can weld up the thumbtips, then clean up the shape. After that, I'll get the articulations for the thumb squared away. Then I can move onto the fingers. Then the brass...decorative work...leathers...etc. It feels like a never-ending project, sometimes, but I'm loving every second of it.

Thoughts? Criticism? .....lavish praise?

[aidanhroarsson]

looking SWEET!

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

A set of 8 stakes and one stake holder. Two different radiused curves, a miniature bickhorn, a gadling stake, a knuckle stake, a fluting stake, a fingertip stake, and a creasing stake. You can probably already guess what I've got planned for these...

Making armour for kittens?