Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

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Keegan Ingrassia
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Hey Kenwrec,

There absolutely are historical examples of putting fingernail shapes on the fingertip lames. You'll have to trust me, until I can find some photos. :oops: More often, it looked like it was a roughly chiseld line, describing the nail. But, extant fingertip lames are also a lot shallower than these pieces.

Thank you very much! :) I actually had quite a bit of fun doing this one. Its lengthy enough to be its own seperate tutorial! :lol:
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by wcallen »

I don't have a good pointer to fingernails on 14th c. gauntlets.

They are pretty common on 16th c. ones though:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-104.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-140.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-208.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-121.html

And they are generally pretty subtle. Some of these are almost just a line, others have some shape along with the line.

Wade
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Kenwrec Wulfe »

wcallen wrote:I don't have a good pointer to fingernails on 14th c. gauntlets.

They are pretty common on 16th c. ones though:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-104.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-140.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-208.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-121.html

And they are generally pretty subtle. Some of these are almost just a line, others have some shape along with the line.

Wade
I had seen them on later century pieces, but never 14th century. I am very curious to see!!!!
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Glaukos the Athenian »

:shock:

This thread is awesome! Fantastic work Keegan!
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

:D Thank you very much, Glaukos!

I had an opportunity to spend the day in the shop, so I got to get some work done on the gaunts. All pieces have now been rough sanded, and I'm working on the articulation for the thumbs. I also went ahead and hammered in the ridge in each finger lame, to strengthen the pieces. Also started polishing up pieces that didn't need any more tweaking. This included fingertips, lames, and knuckle gadlings. Its slow going, because the orbital sander is currently MIA. I'm hand sanding, stepping down through the grits before going to the buffer.

So, lots of tedious work. Probably about 8 hours, give or take, today.

Image
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by jarlragnar »

Looking great...My answer's likely floating around on this thread, but are your knuckles made of brass or is there something else to protect better?
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Kenwrec Wulfe »

Those are going to be some seriously sexy gauntlets, my pale, English brother!
Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. -Aristotle
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Kenwrec Wulfe »

jarlragnar wrote:Looking great...My answer's likely floating around on this thread, but are your knuckles made of brass or is there something else to protect better?
At that size, the brass will protect just fine, actually. :)
Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. -Aristotle
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Just brass, but as my dark, German brother has stated, it'll protect just fine at this smaller size. The extensive shaping to the knuckles also plays a non-trivial part in the strength of the pieces. Don't forget the leather and felt padding that will be between the brass and my gloved hand, as well. Its not like the brass is going to be resting on an anvil, caught between an immovable object and an irresistable force. :)
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Jurgen »

I tried brass knuckles on a pair of finger gauntlets I made once, roughly 16g thick. They basically got destroyed in less than a year, though the wearer didn't get hurt. I replaced them with steel ones.

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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by jarlragnar »

How's this project going? I want to see these things get done!!
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by LucianGalenus »

Beautiful
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Samuel »

Mac wrote:KI,

Here are a couple of pics of an incomplete gauntlet from my "land of lost projects". It's got mitten fingers, of course, but the body of it and the thumb are fundamentally what you are doing.

Note particularly how much closer the lines of it are to your sketches than to your gauntlets as they currently are. I think that your sketch is more like where you want to be.
I hope this is helpful to you.

Mac
Id be happy to take those and finish them up Mac. :D
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Maximus Atreus Of Rome »

Necro-Bumpo because I want to see these gauntlets in their finished state!
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Gurahl »

Maximus Atreus Of Rome wrote:Necro-Bumpo because I want to see these gauntlets in their finished state!
^^^ +1
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Halberds »

Me too.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

:oops: Aw shucks, folks. I'm touched that y'all are still interested in my project. I don't have any pictures right now, but I can give a bit of an update. The fingers and rider plates and knuckle gadlings are all fully polished. All steel components have been painted on the inside. The metacarpal plates need to have the wrist flared a bit wider to accommidate some padding.

I have the leather, felt, gloves, thread, and brass and steel nails needed to assemble everything. The brass decorative pieces are halfway through being shaped, and once thats done, polishing, wigglework and filing. I need to pick up another sheet of brass for the cuffs, but other than that I've got everything I need to finish. Just have to steal some shop time from somewhere...I haven't put hammer to steel in over a month.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Maximus Atreus Of Rome »

It's 2013! Time to start bothering Keegan to post an update again! I'm using my Halberds finger gauntlet tools for the first time, and this thread has been a big motivator for me since it began. I want to see your progress Keegan, I'll show you mine if you show me yours! ;)
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Gaston de Clermont »

Keegan- if you find yourself around Austin you're welcome to swing by. Folks come over to my open workshops every other week or so on Fridays.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Gaston - thanks again for the invitation. I will be sure and drop in when I'm in the area. :) Always willing to glean insight from others' shops and methods.

Maximus - thanks for the kind words! You're in luck, as to seeing my progress on anything. My lady and I recently got engaged ( :mrgreen: ), and along with that came a restructuring of schedules for the new year. What this means as far as shop time: I'm going to be able to make it over to the shop once a week now, instead of once every one to three months. :D I'll be going tonight, in fact, so expect photo updates in a few of my project threads. Tonight will probably be spent cleaning off tools and taking stock of the projects stacked on the work bench, but I'm finally going to be carving out some time to get things moving again.

I am so ready to put hammer to steel.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Well, congratulations to the both of you.

And if you can ride -- and get your new harness finished in time for the wedding -- figger on renting yourself a white horse for the Big Day?

(As a practical note, probably you should take some days to habituate Horsie to the whole idea of you in armor. Horses get weirded out easily, and I can imagine him getting white-eyed over this walking, glittering, clickety-clanking thing that wants up on his back.)
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Thank you, Konstantin, it is appreciated. :)

And while I can ride, the theme of the Big Day is trending towards Art Nouveau rather than d'Art Moyen âge.

And, as promised, here are pictures of the current state of affairs. They were hastily shot, I'm afraid, but should provide a fair frame of reference.

First up, gauntlets.

Image

As can be seen, the majority of the steel pieces are in a final, polished state. The brass pieces are coming along. The most troublesome pieces are, unsurprisingly, the roped brass cuffs that encircle the wrists. Its a combination of no heat source and too large of tools to raise the details...I need to pick up a smaller jeweler's hammer for that. Barring that, however, these are more or less ready for assembly.


Following that are the greaves.

Image Image

These have been largely untouched since I updated them oh-so-long ago, other than cleaning up the surface and waxing to prevent rust. Progress on these are on standby until I get my welding mask back. Additionally, plans to build a small raising forge are in place, which would make the finer details on these vastly easier to achieve.

Final project on the table is a refurbishment of what should have either been loaned out, or shot.

Image

Don't let this image fool you. It was taken from the absolute best possible angle that hid as many flaws as it could. When I bought this helm, it could have easily fit a 30" head and left room for 2" of padding. A potato would have mistaken it for a slightly rusty cousin. The panels were vaguely dished, then welded together. I ripped out the old yellow foam liner that was glued to the interior. Upon removal of that, I discovered a heavy caking of rust to the inside; it had not been painted before the foam had been glued in. After much burning, cursing, grinding, and eventually sandblasting, the majority of the rust had been removed. A few cracked welds were repaired and reground. Believe it or not, the worst of the dents were removed and the dishing on the panels improved. Then, in an effort to shrink this boat to a size that my shoulders couldn't fit into, I cut a swath out of the back of the skull and began reshaping it to possibly fit a human instead of an ogre.

Image Image Image

Until I get my welding mask back, I can't do much else to it yet. I actually need to remove more metal from the bottom third of the skirt to suck it in even further, but I need to weld what I've already cut before doing any more shaping. Even once the helmet gets to a reasonable state, the grill will then need to be rebuilt to fit the smaller size. I'd probably be better served just to cut my losses, toss this, and build a new helmet from scratch, but I'm stubborn and this is practice for...something. A lesson in perseverance, perhaps.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Halberds »

Thanks for the pics I like progress pics the best.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Konstantin the Red »

It's a practice in large-object dish/raise. That bargrill will close down easily enough worked hot, or with a big hammer worked cold. Or a lever. Least of your problems. It may call only for mild re-shape anyway, for the sake of closing it over a proper camail, which wants clearance. A proper camail with temple triangles wouldn't need that chin-bar you can see through the bargrill -- only real purpose to it I can see is to hold the camail up in front. If it were my exercise in stubbornness, that bar would go, and the hat would get its added vervelles, running up either temple. While I'm at it, maybe twice as many vervelles/half the spacing. A quarter-ton crowd of post vervelles goes pretty well with a radical high-point basc.

Won't even mention how a previous owner installed that visor strap inside out... :? :cry: That is a very stoutly made bargrill -- I'm impressed. The welder seems to have known his business. Again, being stubborn -- I'd go after the welds with a rattail file and smooth them, blending them into curves from one bar to the other.

I take it the rad center-hinge you dreamed up in the "Vision of a Dream" thread isn't on -- what Ushumgal called the "MacKeegan."

That's a good 'un, though... how many inches did you take out of the back?

And returning to OT: man, those are gonna be some tasty hourglasses -- marvelously sculpted!!! Pardon me while I wipe my chin.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

I've already removed a good two to three inches at the widest, tapering towards the top. What I really need to do is cut off the grill and raise down the brow line. The forehead of the bascinet is entirely too flat. That would also serve to shrink the rest of the extra circumference. But with that forehead reshaped, this thing does have a little potential to resemble several nice bascinets from the late 14th, early 15th.

Image Image Image Image

I think the point is entirely too high for a klappvisor, however. Which means this helmet likely won't be getting an Alpha version of the "MacKeegan" hinge. As much as I want a mid-point klapp, this helmet practically screams pig-face. I'll have to see if I feel like patterning and raising a new visor for it, once I've finished reshaping. It is definitely getting a sewn-in liner, and a redesigned camail.

Thanks for the kind words on the gaunts. :) I do need to tweak the wrists on them just a tad, to better accommodate my mitts. Currently, I'm tweaking the brass bits so they'll fit tighter to the surface. And the contrary brass cuffs...I either need to rethink my approach to those, or bite the bullet and get tools small enough to do what I want. Once those three things are done, I'll be able to start putting them together. Bout time, I'd say.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Roger roger, 'bout that point -- it does end up one of those Zippy-the-Supersonic-Pinhead profiles of the 1390s. Complete with temple hinge visor... could be tasty, since you're finding out the metal of the helmet skull seems okay in spite of the accumulated rust you mentioned.

I'd end up figuring that bargrill is well enough built to be worth salvaging for something else. Especially if you have somebody around eager to play shop monkey with that rattail file.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

The skull of the helmet is thinner than I'd like, but its within legal standards. Its just an older helm, so its closer to 16ga than anything resembling 14 or 12. I might take a leaf from another helm project I saw on here, where reinforcing plates were welded on the inside to support the most likely landing zones.

The bargrill is certainly stout. I had to re-weld a couple cracked joints, and the bars had only been tack-welded to the central stock, so I put down a solid bead around each. If I end up making a new visor for this helmet, I'm definitely going to have to make a loaner helm to stick the bargrill onto.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Konstantin the Red »

Plates or, well, ribs -- an inch across. Easy to form to the curvatures inside, set about 120 degrees apart to brace each temple hit-zone -- in pairs if necessary.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Scott Martin »

Gah, make a new helm! probably less overall effort and avoiding utter F&%&-ups is better practice than fixing those of others.

Just my $0.02, I'll go back to lurking until I have more pretty (mitten) gauntlet pics to show off...

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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Mac »

Scott Martin wrote:Gah, make a new helm! probably less overall effort and avoiding utter F&%&-ups is better practice than fixing those of others.
I'm with Scott. I like "kit bashing" other armorers stuff a lot more than most folks do, so trust me when I say it is an awful lot of trouble to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Even if the metal were thick enough; there is a great gulf fixed 'tween that old hat and the pics you posted.

Mac
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

No argument there, sir. This hat will never get much better than a dim reflection of those excellent forms; it just wasn't put together with that end in mind. If nothing else, I will put it back together, then donate it to the local group for loaner gear...those eager college kids have very slim pickings, last practice I attended.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Konstantin the Red »

And of the pickings, guess what one piece is of the slimmest?
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Indeed, a shrewd surmisation. I may hot punch the word LOANER into the forhead of the hat, to discourage it walking away. From what I saw, they needed everything...they had a couple helmets, a rotten leather kidney belt, a pair of leather legs, and not much else worth mentioning. They didn't have a roll of duct tape, much less any real repair supplies. Once I take a more active role in the local group, I'm convinced that my hands are going to be kept full getting these folks in decent gear. They were raving over a pair of (bad) munitions clamshells that I'd brought; that's how armor-poor these folks are. Hearts of pure gold, though, and eager to help newcomers.
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Re: Some new tools, and a new project - hourglass gauntlets

Post by Konstantin the Red »

I keep trying to point such poor-as-three-church-mice fellows to standalone gambys and gamboised cuisses, figuring they'd have an easier time of it rounding up fabric and a sewing machine than they would metalwhackin' tools. But talking about it seems not to bring results; looks like it's time to build examples and show 'em off in style!

And cloth and sewing gear around equals pretty good soft kit in due course.

The guys around Lochmere and Storvik (K. of Atl.) tended to chunk out plastic kidney belts with steady regularity back in the day for the minimal-kit entry level. Two-piece at least, plus straps and buckles, and 3- to 5-piece-all-round kidney belts are no harder. If they can, anyone can. And if there are plastic buckets lying around... too light even at best for some people's taste in kidney belts, but for hidden cuisse and vambrace splinting, they have much to be said. And there are the pickle barrels.
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