Correct attachment of gloves to 15th century mitten gauntlet

[Tom B.]

I have a project under way with an armourer and I am looking for the correct method to attach gloves to late 15th century German mitten gauntlets (see the attached photos)

I understand the methods for attaching the glove to leather tabs on the metacarpal, center wrist plates, and outside of the thumb base. I also have seen the attachment methods for the glove cuff to the gauntlet cuff. The finger tips are stitched to a leather strip along the last articulation. But what about part between the metacarpal attachment and the finger tips? This seems to be a big gap that might allow for the metal to move away from the hand. This gap issue seems even more likely when you consider the use of sliding rivets in the mitten plates (see Wade's video) Does this matter? What was done? What do people do now besides a strap across the fingers?

Tom

[Pitbull Armory]

Hola Enrico, those are reeeeeeeeeel nice gauntlets, I think I like the repros better than the originals. Who are you having build those for you? Just at a glance of the details and quality, Id guess.....Jiri Lucius?

Thanks

Andy @ PBA

[Christian Wiedner]

Hi Andy,
those are both originals...

[Tom B.]

Sorry I should have pointed out that those photos are of originals.
The darker pair are from the RA Leeds and the others are in the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna.
My gauntlets will be like the RA pair. I posted the Vienna pair since they show the finger tip plates that seem to be missing from the RA pair.

Thanks,
Tom

Andy,
Don't worry, I will post pictures when I get the new stuff.

[Otto von Teich]

Jiri Klepac made a pair for me. Copies of the RA pair. My cameras still packed away, or I'd take some pics. On mine the thumb has a leather backing covering most of the inside, and a scalloped strip running the length of the fingertips rivited to the seperate plates of the fingertips and the last lame of the mitten. Its just sewn into those. There is also a palm strap, but its a little tight, making the knuckle area ride up my hand. The fit was perfect until I sewed the glove in, which was a pretty thin (deerskin?) glove. I think I'll cut the palm strap off one of these days and put a couple of stitches on either the side of the glove where the left over tabs will be created from removing most of the strap. Either that or just replace it with a slightly longer strap. On a side note, I didnt sew the pinky finger to the strip at the top, I think it gives a bit better weapon control, though I retired from fighting years ago, so thats a mute point I guess for me. I have nothing between the metacarpal attachment and the finger tips. There doesnt seem to be a big gap. The metal plates stay very close to the hand without anything. I'm not sure that its straped 100% like the original, but aside from the tight palm strap, it functions perfectly. I really, really like em! He did a great job on a pair of hourglass gauntlets for me as well.

[Tom B.]

Thanks James.

I remember the thread, with your gauntlets, well.
Just yesterday looked up your flickr page to look at the photos again.


Tom

[Otto von Teich]

Hey Tom, is been so long since I used Flicker, I forgot my password. Can you tell me what the user name was that I used? I forgot that as well . LOL..

[Pitbull Armory]

Ok thanks guys. wow, the pair with gold or brass on them look like they are BRAND NEW. The finger tips make them look really nice too.

Take care

Andy

[Tom B.]

Hey Tom, is been so long since I used Flicker, I forgot my password. Can you tell me what the user name was that I used? I forgot that as well . LOL..

Otto Teichmueller's Flickr page

It took me a little digging to find it yesterday. I went to Flickr since most of the images in the AA thread don't work now.

Tom

[Otto von Teich]

Thanks Tom! I forgot I even have pics of my stinky frauzey schnauzers!

[Tom B.]

After looking through Matthias Goll's book I don't see any additional attachments, between gloves and steel, on these style gauntlets apart from the ones already mentioned.

1. Finger tip leathers (including thumb)
2. Tabs on either side of metacarpal plate
3. Gauntlet cuff
4. Outer edge of large thumb base plate
5. Sometimes leather tabs on either side of middle wrist plate.

Tom

[Mac]

Enrico,

This is what I would expect to see in way of attachment of gloves to Gothic gauntlets....

--A leather strip riveted to the terminal finger lame. This would be sewn to the end of the glove. Note, that a mitten gauntlet would probably have a *mitten* glove as well.

--A pair of leather tabs riveted to the metacarpal. One would be in the "crotch" of the thumb, and the other on the little finger side. These tabs are sewn to the palm of the glove. They take the place of the palm strap, but with a lot less bulk.

--A tab on the plate that covers the base of the thumb. This might be a separate tab, of it might be a continuation of the leather to which the thumb scales are also riveted. If the later, it forms a sort of lining that is the same shape as the plate. This is sewn to the glove at the ball of the thumb.

--There is sometimes a pair of leather strips riveted into the articulating rivets of the mitten; one on the first finger side and another on the little finger side. These are broad enough to provide a margin of leather beyond the armor to which to sew the sides of the lining glove. I have not seen these on Gothic gauntlets, but I have seen it on particularly well preserved Maximillian mittens. Since these leathers share a rivet with the articulation, it is easy to see where they can go missing in a couple of hundred years and leave no trace. With other lining strips, there are dedicated rivets, the presence of which lets us deduce their former presence when they have rotted away; but here we are left guessing.

--There should be a strap on the cuff. This keeps the cuff of the gauntlet close to the arm, and gathers up the cuff of the glove.

I would not expect to find any attachments at the wrist. Although this seems like a good place to secure the glove, I do not recall having seen any tabs, or even rivets in this location.

Likewise, the cuff of the gauntlet is *not* attached to the cuff of the glove. In many other styles of gauntlet, the cuff is attached, but not in Gothic gauntlets. I don't know why this is. Perhaps they felt that the rivets detracted from the graceful lines.

Mac

[Tom B.]

I am not too sure that these are glove attachment points but I did find some interesting "extra" holes on the 2nd mitten lame up from the finger tips on A60. The holes are on either side of the middle finger. They seem to be only on the right gauntlet.

Tom

[Otto von Teich]

Thanks for the insight Mac, looks like I'll cut the palmstrap off, and sew the leftover tabs to the gloves. Excellent! Both period correct and easiest fix for my minor problem. A lucky break for me!

[Mac]

Enrico,

In your latest posting (the which I should have read again before posting) you mention tabs on the wrist plate. I have not seen these, but I do not have Matthias' book. How many examples have you found? This seems like a good place for attachment, but, as I said above, I have not seen it.

Likewise, you mention the cuff. Do Matthias' pics show lining strips on Gothic cuffs? How common is this? Perhaps I need to spring for his book...

Mac

[Mac]

I am not too sure that these are glove attachment points but I did find some interesting "extra" holes on the 2nd mitten lame up from the finger tips on A60. The holes are on either side of the middle finger. They seem to be only on the right gauntlet.

Tom

I see them.....but I don't have a theory. Perhaps James Gillespie has some insights here.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Enrico,

In your latest posting (the which I should have read again before posting) you mention tabs on the wrist plate. I have not seen these, but I do not have Matthias' book. How many examples have you found? This seems like a good place for attachment, but, as I said above, I have not seen it.

Likewise, you mention the cuff. Do Matthias' pics show lining strips on Gothic cuffs? How common is this? Perhaps I need to spring for his book...

Mac

Thanks for your insight.

I think the book is well worth the price.
I would suggest checking direct with Matthias via PM on the AAF.
He had several books he was selling directly at a discount.

As for the wrist plate tabs there are several finger gauntlets that still have what appear to be original tabs in place.
There is a gauntlet in Freiburg at the Augustinermuseum that has the best preserved glove I have ever seen.
Goll has about 20 color photos of this gauntlet. The book is worth getting just for these. I think this may be the first time this gauntlet has been published apart from a 1970 museum catalog.

Several of the other gauntlets either have rivets or holes in the wrist plate which could either be for tabs or straps.

I do see the articulation + Leather rivets you mentioned.

Tom

[Tom B.]

--A leather strip riveted to the terminal finger lame. This would be sewn to the end of the glove. Note, that a mitten gauntlet would probably have a *mitten* glove as well.

Would you expect the mitten glove to be used in a mitten gauntlet with the individual finger tips?
Would you expect the leather mounting these tip to be separate or in one piece?
All of the ones I have seen pictures of probably have replacement leather and none have gloves.
Generally the seem to be displayed with the finger tips separated.

Thanks again,

Tom

[Tom B.]

Likewise, you mention the cuff. Do Matthias' pics show lining strips on Gothic cuffs? How common is this? Perhaps I need to spring for his book...

I did not address this question.

After further review I may need to revise my statement and say that a few show cuff attachments.
These seem to be the ones with the fancy latten along the cuff.
This is especially well preserved in the above mentioned Freiburg specimen.

Tom

[Mac]

--A leather strip riveted to the terminal finger lame. This would be sewn to the end of the glove. Note, that a mitten gauntlet would probably have a *mitten* glove as well.

Would you expect the mitten glove to be used in a mitten gauntlet with the individual finger tips?
Would you expect the leather mounting these tip to be separate or in one piece?
All of the ones I have seen pictures of probably have replacement leather and none have gloves.
Generally the seem to be displayed with the finger tips separated.

Thanks again,

Tom

That's a good question. I am guessing, of course, but I just can't help thinking that a mitten with separate finger tips probably had a fingered glove within.

Mounting the finger tip scales on separate strips is a slightly more economical use of leather, but it might be more convenient to mount them on a one piece, and cut out between the fingers. This presumes that the glove is a fingered one.

Mac

[Mac]

Likewise, you mention the cuff. Do Matthias' pics show lining strips on Gothic cuffs? How common is this? Perhaps I need to spring for his book...

I did not address this question.

After further review I may need to revise my statement and say that a few show cuff attachments.
These seem to be the ones with the fancy latten along the cuff.
This is especially well preserved in the above mentioned Freiburg specimen.

Tom

Are you sure that these rivets are for the lining and not for securing the latten?

Mac

[Tom B.]

Likewise, you mention the cuff. Do Matthias' pics show lining strips on Gothic cuffs? How common is this? Perhaps I need to spring for his book...

I did not address this question.

After further review I may need to revise my statement and say that a few show cuff attachments.
These seem to be the ones with the fancy latten along the cuff.
This is especially well preserved in the above mentioned Freiburg specimen.

Tom

Are you sure that these rivets are for the lining and not for securing the latten?

Mac

Edit: See post below for updated info from private message from Matthias Goll

At least on the one example from Freiburg I am sure.
The glove is still there and it is secured by the rivets.

Tom

[Tom B.]

Mac,

Matthias just told me that your suspicions are correct.
In his opinion the cuff attachment was not normally (if ever prior to 1500) done.
It is likely that on the Freiburg example that the latten strips were reattached and the glove was attached to them then.

Tom

[Mac]

Mac,

Matthias just told me that your suspicions are correct.
In his opinion the cuff attachment was not normally (if ever prior to 1500) done.
It is likely that on the Freiburg example that the latten strips were reattached and the glove was attached to them then.

Tom

I feel better already!

Mac

[Tom B.]

It is likely that on the Freiburg example that the latten strips were reattached and the glove was attached to them then.

Looking at the pics again I can see what looks like an additional piece of leather stitched to the glove cuff to make it longer.
It is this extention piece that is attached to the cuff, presumably the extention and attachment are not original.

Tom

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

When I examined the A 60 gauntlets, they were mounted on blocks that attached to the ends of the arms of the arming dummy. I did not feel at liberty to remove them. Matthias Goll may have had a far better look at them than I had; there are photos in his book that show their innards. The mounting blocks kept me from learning a lot about the gauntlets, unfortunately. I do believe, though, that the holes in the finger lame that line up with the middle finger are for securing the gauntlet to the glove, but it appears to be a unique arrangement - at least in my experience. I also believe that a (partially?) fingered glove was used for them (hence the separate finger tips). I think what I'm trying to say here is; is the current arrangement, in which the finger tip leathers are riveted to the terminal finger lame, the original arrangement, or something done later to keep them in place when the glove rotted away? The A 60's have sliding rivets in the finger lames; I don't think Wade's has them. Is that right, Wade?

[wcallen]

Both my Gothic mittens and my slightly post gothic partial mitten (fingers, knuckles and 1 1/2 plates from the back of the hand) have sliding rivets in both the back of hand and the fingers.

I see signs of attachment at the finger tips and in the knuckle plate. I do not see any other signs of places for the finger plates to be secured to the glove.

Wade

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Oh, so those WERE washer tracks I was seeing in your photos! Try as I might, I could not actually spot a slider slot.

[wcallen]

Oh, so those WERE washer tracks I was seeing in your photos! Try as I might, I could not actually spot a slider slot.

No problem. The washers are a little big and the gauntlets have been relatively recently re-assembled with new rivets and washers. It is hard to see the slots on the inside and the point extensions on the outside fully cover the slots when they are all the way extended. This makes them hard to see. The slots are a lot more obvious on my part-gauntlet.

I cheated and just went upstairs and played with them to be sure. It is a lot easier to know for sure when you are holding the piece.

Looking at mine, the attachment seems to be:

Strip of leather at the finger tips.
Holes for a strap/tabs at the knuckle
Palm strap on the main metacarpal plate.
Holes for strap and buckle on the cuff.
hole for attachment to the glove in the base thumb plate.
Most certainly originally stitched to the thumb leather but that is now replaced.
No signs of other securing in the fingers or back of hand.
No signs of any way to secure the glove to the cuff.

Wade

[Tom B.]

Thanks for the additional information.

Looking back I meant to post a link to Wade's partial gauntlet not the completed one I posted.

Wade,

There are holes for strap/tabs on the knuckles?
Is this on both the full and partial gauntlets?
I am having trouble reaching your website from China or I would look through your posted photos and videos myself.

Tom

[wcallen]

Thanks for the additional information.

Looking back I meant to post a link to Wade's partial gauntlet not the completed one I posted.

Wade,

There are holes for strap/tabs on the knuckles?
Is this on both the full and partial gauntlets?
I am having trouble reaching your website from China or I would look through your posted photos and videos myself.

Tom

That isn't the 'partial gauntlet' I was talking about.
I try to keep my references as close as I can to the topic of conversation (in this case 15th c. mitten gauntlets). That gaunlet is late 16th c. There are a lot of things that are common, but it isn't what we are talking about, so I left it out.

The 'partial' I was talking about was this one:



I don't have it here at work, but from memory it only has rivets at the end of the fingers that secure a (replaced) leather strip and rivets for a palm strap. There are no other signs of any way to secure the glove or the gauntlet to the hand in these remaining bits. It looks like I don't have many pictures of this particular piece posted. That is a shame, it really does work very nicely. It is one of the pieces I always have to drag out when we are talking about gauntlet construction and movement because it just works so well.

So - palm and knuckle attachment points for securing to the hand/glove in the full gauntlets, only palm in the partial one. Other, later ones seem to abandon the knuckle strap too. These seem to be gone on both my gauntlets from the 1510's and 1530's.

The web site was being a little slow for me yesterday. So far it appears to be working better today. If you continue to have problems we can try a traceroute and speedtest from your system and if we find anything I can ask GoDaddy what might be going on. Send me emails and we can try to do some diagnosis.

Wade

[Tom B.]

That isn't the 'partial gauntlet' I was talking about.
I try to keep my references as close as I can to the topic of conversation (in this case 15th c. mitten gauntlets). That gauntlet is late 16th c. There are a lot of things that are common, but it isn't what we are talking about, so I left it out.

The 'partial' I was talking about was this one:

Wade

Sorry!
That is the one I wanted to show.
I am posting from China and can not access your site from here.
China actively blocks some sites for unknown reasons.
I posted the link from an e-mail I had.
I meant to post the video of the A-47 you posted above.

Tom

[Tom B.]

Is this the correct link?
http://www.allenantiques.com/GauntletPartMovement.mp4
If not could you post a link to the correct one?

Thanks,
Tom

[wcallen]

Cool. I wonder what I did to merit being blocked from China. I feel special.

Anyway, the partial gauntlet we have now both posted does indeed have:

A leather strip at the end of the fingers riveted at 4 points - one rivet for each finger.
What appears to actually be the remains of a palm strap on the main plate - just behind the knuckle plate attachment rivets.

There are no other signs of attachment points.

There are also sliding rivets at ALL of the joints - finger lames, finger lames to knuckle, knuckle to main plate and main plate to the next hand plate. They allow for a lot of change in length.

Wade

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

I would like to add that in ALL the artwork of whatever sort I have seen, the cuff of the lining glove of German 'gothic' gauntlets shows no signs of being secured to the cuff of the steel gauntlet.