The Armour Archive

Keegan, with, ahem, gratuitous reference to "sticking necks out" -- do you want hard protection or padded protection in the collar portion of your haburgeon, the bit that is drawn so like a standard-of-mail?

Well, KtR, I'm undecided, as of yet. The exterior will be a mail standard, certainly; I just feel it looks nicer on the kit than a SCAdian Brig gorget.
I've got two ideas for it, however. One involved a padded liner to the standard. The other involves a three-piece hinged metal gorget hidden between the mail and liner. Proper look, and a good marshal pacifier.

Oh, and I'm thinking of using voidered arms, laced to my aketon, as well as a separate mail skirt. Help cut down on the weight, and they've been documented as early as mid-14th. Since this kit is shooting for 1380, I don't feel bad about it.

Ah. And here I was telling other people you had a haburgeon on under there, oh well. A couple guests from M.A.I.L. might wander over here to peek.

My question re the standard of mail was a little vague anyway, as either hard bits or stiffish padding would serve beneath the camail -- superb multilayered defense of the spine and throat. Horizontally articulated hard stuff in front of the throat could save your life some day against a hard-driven thrust with just the wrong vector.

Main thing to watch with your choice of padding, I should think, is the heat factor. I keep looking with interest on the SCA-Engineered School idea of using terry toweling next the skin in there, and indeed for the entire padding (SCA-Eng'd because I don't think terrycloth is period. If I'm wrong, hooray!), or with linen stuffing too -- trying to get away from a collar wholly padded with Smurf blubber so one doesn't get all sweaty in there. I'm therefore inclined for myself to go with hard protection, since it can be shallower, closer-fitting -- and hide easily beneath the mail of a standard of mail, while looking not at all different. Who built that really spiffy hard-necked standard a couple-three years back? She sold it for a good price, iirc.

Well, to be fair, my drawing didn't really make it clear what the configuration of the lower layers look like. I suppose I could sketch up a drawing for each layer, a la "How a man Shall be Armed".....

Precisely! While in the letter of the rules a camail with a padded liner is equivalent, the mail standard with the articulated gorget built inside it would be excellent insurance...and look good when I'm not wearing my helm, to boot.

I'm going to try and keep all of my padding on this kit period, except for a hidden bit of foam in my bascinet as insurance from grounding out the linen suspension liner. Its just way too hot in the south to use anything other than natural fabrics. With the hard protection under the mail, I should be able to still fit in a couple layers of linen and batting. Probably need to sketch up my plans for that, too...

I remember that sale...I wish I'd saved the pictures from that; she had done a really excellent job on it. It may be where I first started liking mail standards, in fact...

I know I had to wipe my chin a bit, looking at her pics. Good inspiration.

There was also that fella who built the standard with all the little escutcheons all the way around the neckband, after a fifteenth-century effigy. He made the escutcheons in mail, in contrasting wire. That'd be OOP for your harness, though. That collar was thick enough for Ernest Hemingway.

I found it! I found it!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=110181


Cat of Catherine's Quest made them.

I couldn't quite bring her name to memory...

I think I'll be in my bunk, thinking of Catherine.

dang....

*looks again*

*heads to his bunk*

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:

Buster wrote:Are you going to use slotted strapping?

It'd certainly be a nice touch, Buster, and after Martel bringing up the question in her thread about them, they've been on my mind since last night.

Edit: Actually, you can see where I drew slotted straps on the cuisses, on the front veiw. Just forgot to show the rivet out on the metal.

Yeah, most people miss little details like that.
(I've noticed slotted strapping on effigies going back to the 1340's, but I rarely see it reproduced.)
Either way, your kit would be exceptional.

Based on art, it also seems that it was typical to wear a small mantle/standard under the avential.

Buster, around here they tell me the period art shows mock-turtleneck haburgeons rather than separate mail standards for this era. They mustered up some convincing arguments.

Konstantin the Red wrote:Buster, around here they tell me the period art shows mock-turtleneck haburgeons rather than separate mail standards for this era. They mustered up some convincing arguments.

I'm not saying those weren't used, but standards were certianly used as well. (Romance of Alexander is full of them, and nearly every French efigy of the time shows a mail standard.)

Everytime someone is shown in armour without a bascinet, they have some sort of mail at the neck. This leads me to believe wearing another layer of mail under the aventail was the norm.

Mm...another detail for me to iron out. Ah well, the more drawings I do before launching myself into this, the better chance I have of getting it right. I think I'm going to go ahead and start working on sketches from the shirt out.

Speaking of...I've got my calf currently taped up. I intended to start marking and cutting out a pattern for some cased greaves. Now the details have stopped me.

On late 14th century cased greaves:
- Was there a roll along the bottom edge?
- A roll on the back plate, at the calf?
- Were the hinges applied externally, or was a notch cut out of the back plate and internally applied?
- Were they held shut with a pin, or a strap?
- If a strap, did it have a slot into which it was internally riveted?
- Where along its length was the pin and/or strap located?

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Mm...another detail for me to iron out. Ah well, the more drawings I do before launching myself into this, the better chance I have of getting it right. I think I'm going to go ahead and start working on sketches from the shirt out.

Speaking of...I've got my calf currently taped up. I intended to start marking and cutting out a pattern for some cased greaves. Now the details have stopped me.

On late 14th century cased greaves:
- Was there a roll along the bottom edge?
- A roll on the back plate, at the calf?
- Were the hinges applied externally, or was a notch cut out of the back plate and internally applied?
- Were they held shut with a pin, or a strap?
- If a strap, did it have a slot into which it was internally riveted?
- Where along its length was the pin and/or strap located?

When possible, I like to work from real surviving pieces. That means you have one example that I know of. The Chartres stuff:

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistr ... 4%24%2534P

So -
Roll on the bottom - no appears to be reasonable
Roll on the back of the calf - no
Hinges are notched and inset (on the arms they are integral)
Strap closure
Straps run through the slots.
Look at the pics for location.

I think that staring at effigies will end up with similar results.

Now - there are no rolls at least partially because this armour had decorative borders. I think that no rolls at the bottom is reasonable. There isn't any real need for them since the greave will overlap the sabaton.
If you are going to use knee wraps (which seem to help my comfort a lot) the roll at the calf is probably not strictly necessary either and you don't need a little extra stiffness to help the springy-ness of the back to keep the pins in place. Even when there is a roll at the calf it tends to be very small and subtle. I bet you could put it there or not depending on mood and how early or late you want your armour to be within the range where it would be reasonable. More likely to be rolled later.

Wade

Perhaps... 5 lames on the sabatons?

I've seen effigies from slightly earlier showing interior hinges with a cutout, though greave hinges are rarely shown from the timeframe in question.

Wade, sir, thank you so very much for that! The one picture I could find of the Chartres greave was small, grainy, and taken from a poor angle. This is an excellent resource. And thank you for the help with the details; I truly appreciate the time. As this harness will be skirting the end of the 14th, I think it would not be unreasonable to add a small, discrete roll to the back of the calf, even though I likely will use a wool wrap. Since I'm not planning on a brass border, would it be safe to assume a small, discrete roll at the ankle as well? Or would I be better off sticking with the extant piece, and not having one? Most effigies I've been looking at leave off details of hinges and straps, much less any rolls.

Halberds, 5 lames between the toe and ankle pieces? Alright sir, thank you! I went and checked some effigies, and right you are. Thanks for that detail, it will certainly make my sabatons function better.

Buster, thanks for the continual help! I really do appreciate it.

Been wearing my saran wrap and duct tape greave most of the day, and I've met with a couple conclusions.
1, Once the piece is properly trimmed below the knee and about the ankle, you really forget that its there.
2, For slightly better mobility, it needs a small flare at the top of the calf, and beginning above the ankle. Which mirrors the same flare and shape of extant greaves...imagine that!
3, The bulge of the calf needs to come down slightly farther than my own calf does while at rest, to allow for movement. Also a feature on extant greaves.

Although the Chatres greave is a valuable exant example, it only represents one style of French greave, (made for a child) so I would avoid drawing any sweeping conclusions from it.
Here is what looks to be a rolled edge at the ankle. (Although it is 1360's)
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/alex_mowbray/image/975/large/

So...greaves. Not the easiest piece of armor to make. Still, after about 3-4 hours last night, and another 8-ish today, I'm not feeling too bad with where its at so far.


Behold! The duct tape pattern! Since I currently have neither a heat source, nor any nice saddle stakes for raising the ankles, I went with a welded construction.



So here's what I've got so far. Once I've welded up the shin, I'll work some more on the ankle area, to pull it together and get a better transition to the flare. I'll also raise down the ankle bumps. There's some extra metal along the bottom for a roll. This is my first try at making greaves.

[Admiring whistle] First try, saith he, quotha!!

I don't hate your guts -- okay, maybe I muster up a mild dislike of your body hair! I wanna do like you do.

Thank you very kindly, sir! I wouldn't be doing like I do, without all the knowledge I've gleaned from you fine folks here.

Love the shape! Very nice!

wow

NICE!

Hey, neat idea on the duct tape pattern.

I'm envious. Are you going to make the entire kit yourself?

One more point I thought of worth mentioning.
When it comes to that style of arms, don't make the vambrace two equal halves like the Churburg arms.
Instead, make the main part of the vambrace wrap about 3/4 of the way around, then have the remaining 1/4 hinge closed. Like the rerebrace.
(Here's my source.)
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/humphrey_littlebury/image/207/large/

Thanks, everyone.

kfm, I got the idea about the duct tape pattern from this thread on patterning cuisses. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=126956
I'll be reusing this method as I move up the legs.

Buster, I'm going to try to make as much of this as I can. I'll probably end up buying the helm. Maybe buying a RFTH breastplate and cutting it in half for the corrazina, to save my arm the pounding. Later, I'd purchase riveted mail to replace whatever butted mail I throw together.

Interesting point on the vambrace; I'd planned to section off the rerebrace in that manner, but not the vambrace. I seem to recall seeing pictures of that sort of closure on vambraces before, though.

Buster wrote:One more point I thought of worth mentioning.
When it comes to that style of arms, don't make the vambrace two equal halves like the Churburg arms.
Instead, make the main part of the vambrace wrap about 3/4 of the way around, then have the remaining 1/4 hinge closed. Like the rerebrace.
(Here's my source.)
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/humphrey_littlebury/image/207/large/

I think that there is some variability here. And I think that 3/4 is probably a bit much. A lot of this is conjecture, so play how you want, but it appears that the late 14th c. way to do things is to have the outer plate wrap more than 50% of the way around, but not 75%. It appears to me that they got the most aggressive on this asymmetry in the 15th c.

Take a look at the closest thing I have to such a thing.

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-186.html

It includes an outer plate that wraps more than 50% around. How far around it appears to go will depend on how the rotating slots are positioned. Slid around toward the wing, it will look like it goes farther around than it really does.

Maybe something like 60% for the outer plate? I think that gives enough to let you put the nice slots in and let them move.

This is an opinion based on a very small number of samples like mine, some in the Met and Churburg. Feel free to offer counter examples.

Wade

I concluded the main part wraps about 3/4 of the way aound due to the position of the hinges on the above effigy. The hinges are basically on the top of the arm. (Said arm is 2 lame construction, so I'm assuming it can't rotate laterally.)
This makes sense, as the rerebrace is constructed this way as well.
It would also explain why we don't often see hinge lines on the outside of the vambrace. (like the BP's effigy.)

Whelp, as per my SOP, the second took about half as long as the first.

The greave for the left leg took about 12 hours to get where it is currently. The greave on the right has taken 4 so far, and in another 2 I should have the shaping as far along as the left one.



Oh, and I found exactly the brass nails I needed for my gauntlet project, so expect to see some progress on those soon.

Wade, a quick question. What is that small band on the bottem of the vambrace, not to dethread here...

Ckanite wrote:Wade, a quick question. What is that small band on the bottem of the vambrace, not to dethread here...

That is a "stop-rib." Sort of like the one on a breastplate. It is meant to stop a blade from sliding between the lames.

Yup, what he said.

They appear to have been popular in the late 14th and certainly early into maybe mid 15th c. They ended up in the oddest places sometimes.

On vambraces like this one (this one is actually a replacement, but a good one), necks of breastplates, armholes of some of the breastplate halves that are covered in fabric, pauldrons have similar ribs sometimes, and I have seen some on cuisses.

These are separate pieces. Sometimes they do similar things with embossed ridges in plates. Later armours basically do the same thing with the nice big rolls they put in fun places.

They both keep edges out of the delicate bits of the armour and stiffen pieces. Though that wouldn't seem to be very necessary in this case given the thickness of this arm right under the stop rib.

Wade

I figured I should post a quick snap of what's going under all of this metal.



The joined hosen point to the pourpoint all the way around. The leather tabs on the front are where my cuisses will point to. Over this will be a lightly padded aketon, laced up in a manner similar to my pourpoint, to which my mail skirt and sleeves will be attached, and my arm harness pointed to.

ETA: Oh, right. Shirt and hosen patterned and sewn by me. Pourpoint is purchased, but I'll make another one with better reinforced eyelettes when this one tears through.

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:I figured I should post a quick snap of what's going under all of this metal.



The joined hosen point to the pourpoint all the way around. The leather tabs on the front are where my cuisses will point to. Over this will be a lightly padded aketon, laced up in a manner similar to my pourpoint, to which my mail skirt and sleeves will be attached, and my arm harness pointed to.

ETA: Oh, right. Shirt and hosen patterned and sewn by me. Pourpoint is purchased, but I'll make another one with better reinforced eyelettes when this one tears through.

Represent, my brother!! Looking snazzy...