A better riveted mail standard, ideas? (now competed w/pics)

[Tom B.]

As my late 15th century kit gets better and more complete one of the items still needing improvement is my standard.
I have looked quite a bit for a source for a better riveted mail standard without success.
It seems all that are commercially available are made from three trapezoids of mail and do not provide full coverage to the back of the neck.
I want something like James B. made here.

So far my only options seem to be either buy the links and make it myself (not very likely) or to buy an aventail to cut down (circular mantel / shoulder) and add a band of mail for the throat.

So far the second route looks like my best option.
I am looking at Ice's 6mm round ring aventail with some loose 6mm flat rings to make the band around the throat.

I think this would give me the look I want, namely:
1. round mantel / shoulder section (not trapezoids).
2. neck band more dense than shoulder section. (see original from James B.'s Page)
3. Full coverage around the back of my neck.

However there are some downsides:
1. Cost is almost $500 after shipping ($265.50 (aventail) + $195 (loose 6mm flat rings 1/2 bag) + shipping)
2. I would also need to cut away over 1/2 of the aventail.

Ideas?
Thoughts?

Thanks,
Tom

[Odd]

Actually...

the way the one you linked is made, looks like it is simply a padded leather dog collar gorget, with the chain sewn to the upper edge. If you do it this way, the expansions will crowd together, making the collar look more densely woven, as that is how the chain will hang. If you pull it up a few rows higher, stitch down near the bottom, then sew down the top row, it will stand rigid against the padding. Well.. more rigid..

EDIT: Above advice given based on using an Aventail, in place of a standard. Same effect, really, but with a round woven piece with expansion, not the three trapezoids.

[Jonathon Janusz]

What you propose with the aventail and bag of links is my plan, except I'm going for 9mm wedge stainless for the aventail and (hopefully if he can source them) 6mm wedge stainless for the collar.

. . . cut away half the aventail, huh? I never really looked at the size of the aventail before I ordered. Just means plenty of spare parts for later, or enough to build out another one once I chew up the first one.

Best of luck on your project! Doing it all in 6mm should be pretty sweet!

[wcallen]

I used 9mm flat, round rivet for the one I did because it was what I had lying around. Honestly, I just made it from loose rings. It didn't actually take very long. There isn't all that much mail in a collar.

Here is a picture of it on the kid:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/Geo ... Collar.jpg

It was a band of mail around the collar sewn to a padded band and a flaired skirt. Yes, it was for a kid so it has even less mail than a full sized one, but even full sized it isn't that big. I think that the extra work (not that much actually - re-cutting things is annoying. Making it from scratch lets to get the right for) involved in "doing it all" will be balanced out with "I made it from rings".

For what it is worth, here is the real one I have:

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-5.html

It is a cheap 16th c. one not a nice 15th c. one. I can't afford one of those glorious bishop's mantles.


Wade

[Tom B.]

It was a band of mail around the collar sewn to a padded band and a flaired skirt. Yes, it was for a kid so it has even less mail than a full sized one, but even full sized it isn't that big. I think that the extra work (not that much actually - re-cutting things is annoying. Making it from scratch lets to get the right for) involved in "doing it all" will be balanced out with "I made it from rings".

I will try to give it a go.
I already have made my rivet setting pliers and have a bunch of loose 6mm round rings.
Maybe if I bring the stuff to work and spend some lunch hours working on it I can get it done.

Too bad I can't bring it on the plane during my trip to China next month.
I could probably get the whole thing done easily during a 16 hour flight to Hong Kong.

Tom

[wcallen]

building it on the plane.

Hmm.

Are you sure you can't?

There are a lot of rules about how much shampoo you can take on the plane, but you would be amazed what they will allow on there. The last time I flew my carry-ons included lots of armour. It was antique, but it was just as solid metal. There were 2 gauntlets in there and several little bits.

Some rivets. Probably fine. Some rings. Sure. The pliers are the only funny thing and I bet you could check with them beforehand on that. It isn't noisy.

I did most of mine while (not) watching TV in the evenings.

Wade

[Konstantin the Red]

There are small-size camails on offer out there too... or is that what you're already getting from Icefalcon?

[Vilhelm550]

http://www.capapie.co.uk/standards.html

[Mac]

http://www.capapie.co.uk/standards.html

Yes...but look how badly it fits. There is not enough expansion to allow it close in the back, and there is no "collar".

It's not hard to make them correctly. I will try to post some pics of a standard I made.

Mac

[Vilhelm550]

Yeah, I posted that accidentally before askign about it...my bad.
Been thinging of makign one of these after my other mail projects, if I have enough rings left (9mm mild steel flat ring round, rivet sourced form Icefalcon).

I really like to look and solid feel of Mr Allen's.
So in proper form the mial comes to the top of the padding, stiched top and bottom, and flares away from the neck a bit, and close fully (with a mail-to-mail edge) in the back? Just wondering if I am thinking about this correctly.

[Tom B.]

The pliers are the only funny thing and I bet you could check with them beforehand on that.

I definitely would have to make another set of pliers to even try it.
My current set I made from a large set of harbor freight fencing pilers.

I may just go out today and try to find the smallest most innocuous pliers that I think will set the rivet.
Luckily my flight starts out at my local small town airport and it should be pretty easy for me to check ahead of time.

Tom

[Tom B.]

Looks like pilers 7" or less in length are OK.
TSA: Prohibited Items List

Looks like I am going out to buy some pliers today.

Tom

[Vilhelm550]

That think makes a great riveting tool, doesn't it?
I can just imagine the look on a TSA screener's face if that thing showed up on the scanner....

Hope you don't hit any turbulence while workign on the mail.
(one reason I wait until my two and three year olds are in bed before the mail projects come out of hiding)

[Mac]

Here is the standard I spoke of earlier. I made the collar and the hollow of the throat of slightly denser mail, but it is really not dense enough to make a difference.



If anyone is interested, I can sketch out the pattern, either in general, or with ring counts.

Here is how it fits me. It is really made for someone larger. The buckle is just temporary. when it is finished, it will probably have two buckles at the back of the neck, and perhaps a couple of hooks on the cape to keep it closed.







This is not a difficult object to make. I wish someone could convince the Indian mail makers to do it. The problem is, of course, that as long as we keep accepting crap, they will keep making crap.

Mac

[Jonathon Janusz]

Mac, I would offer a counter point in that it isn't the convincing that needs be done, but rather whether or not the costs justify the expense and whether or not there is enough of a market to justify the project at all.

I offer as example the project of tailored sleeves Icefalcon put together here on the archive based on a discussion started by Ken. Wade contributed some images to work from, Ice took it to the shop and asked if they could do it, the shop said, "sure", a price was set, and orders were placed.

Two points of note: first, although there was a good number interested in the example project above, it took a few days doing to get enough folks together with money in hand to get the ball rolling. Second, although the cost of the final product was not at all unreasonable, the cost compared to the "crap" offering (meaning simpler shapes/construction) wasn't a small jump. Again, market, economy, disposable income, luxury goods, and all that. . .

The great news, in my mind, is that with the sleeve project we have now established that not only is stuff like this possible, but also that it seems a fairly simple process to execute (at least from the outside-in observations to be had from here). The real trick, again in my opinion, is now someone making the hard decisions (and research) to commission what would be basically "version 2.0" revisions of the stock-in-trade products that sell consistently from these makers, "clearing out the old" so to speak, and moving on into the new. This bringing with it both economy of scale to keep prices in check as best can be done, along with an underlying driving force to raise the bar of expectations in the end customer.

We now have the basics (and a few slightly less-than-basics) available in a broad range of materials and ring styles to fit most applications/budgets. Further, eliminating the most expensive/exotic options, these basics can be had from multiple sources competing at multiple price points in arguably similar qualities, leaving the "service after the sale" of the end retailer along with variations in each particular manufacturer's flair in the making to be the factors governing who spends their dollars where. Maybe the next frontier in paradigm shifts in this industry, or in my mind the next big thing to set vendor (end retailer) X from vendor Y will be this step up into premium patterns at prices competitive to the other guys' stock offerings. Then, once somebody sets the standard such that it gains traction and others follow, the bar as a whole is raised.

I've said it before, but for those in to mail armour, these are most excellent times!

[audax]

Here is the standard I spoke of earlier. I made the collar and the hollow of the throat of slightly denser mail, but it is really not dense enough to make a difference.



If anyone is interested, I can sketch out the pattern, either in general, or with ring counts.

Here is how it fits me. It is really made for someone larger. The buckle is just temporary. when it is finished, it will probably have two buckles at the back of the neck, and perhaps a couple of hooks on the cape to keep it closed.







This is not a difficult object to make. I wish someone could convince the Indian mail makers to do it. The problem is, of course, that as long as we keep accepting crap, they will keep making crap.

Mac

What is the collar made of? How is the mail attached to the collar?

Many thanks for posting this. I've made a mail standard but was not totally happy with it and more info makes me a better armourer.

[Sean Powell]

I'm wondering if someone like Ice Falcon, who sells both hard gorgets and imports Indian maile would be interested in a merged product. The steel gorget would protect the neck but the maile hides the non-period armor. I think Galleron wears something like this (and his has ventilation holes in the gorget too). It would require either a maile standard that opened on the side to match the gorget (but would tent to drape open over the shoulder) or a hard gorget that opened in the back.

Any ideas?
Sean

[Jan van Nyenrode]

Hi Sean,

That's basically what I did. It really is simple but looks nice in my opinion.

It's just a standard brigandine pattern from Talbot which I made back closing. To ensure integrity and protection I extended the left plates to be able to insert this between the rivets, the leather and the right internal plates. Covered it with a standard and made a linen and wool liner.

Very comfortable gorget.

Cheers,

Jan

[Mac]

Jonathan,

I see your points.

I think that what is needed is an educated consumer, who knows that real mail was tailored to fit human beings, and who will not accept untailored tubes. Tube-mail needs to go the way of the T-tunic and the Freon-can-helm.

I am anxious to see how Andree's new stuff looks and sells.

Mac

[Mac]

What is the collar made of? How is the mail attached to the collar?

Many thanks for posting this. I've made a mail standard but was not totally happy with it and more info makes me a better armourer.

Audax,

I'm not sure that I understand your question.

I have used the expression "collar" to denote the part of the standard that covers the neck. This I distinguish form the "cape", which covers the shoulders. The first is fundamentally a rectangular strip of mail, and the second is made with expansions to flair sufficiently to fit. The two components are knit together like any two pieces of mail.

In the pics, I have simply pulled the collar of my shirt into the collar of the mail to bulk it out a bit.

When the standard is finished, I will probably sew a lining into the "collar" part. This will make it more comfortable, and will also keep it from sagging in front.

Does this help?

Mac

[Mac]

Audax,

OK, I have had a few hours to think about this. Is is that you are asking how a mail standard would be attached to, or integrated with a rigid of semi rigid defense, in order to make it SCA legal?

I would make a spring steel "dog collar" that hinged in the front, and closed in back with a low profile catch. The steel collar would go between the mail and the lining. Thus, you could wear the mail with, or without the rigid defense, depending upon the venue.

Sorry for the confusion....

Mac

[Mac]

I'm wondering if someone like Ice Falcon, who sells both hard gorgets and imports Indian maile would be interested in a merged product. The steel gorget would protect the neck but the maile hides the non-period armor. I think Galleron wears something like this (and his has ventilation holes in the gorget too). It would require either a maile standard that opened on the side to match the gorget (but would tent to drape open over the shoulder) or a hard gorget that opened in the back.

Any ideas?
Sean

Sean,

Your post got me thinking that I had not answered the question that Audax was really asking.

If my memory serves me, I made Galeron's steel "dog collar" open in the front, and hinge down the back. His mail is an earlier sort than the one I posted pics above. The late 14th C. "pizane" seems to have been radially symmetrical, and the overall shape was more like a cooling tower. (sort of like a houpeland collar) We could have put the buckles in the back or the front, but he wanted them in front. thus, we hinged the steel collar in the back.

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Mac,

I think she was more asking, how did you make the collar of the standard more dense...smaller links? Different weave of the mail?

And how did you transition from the collar, to the mantle? Any particular method, or just expansions?

[Mac]

KI,

The collar and the cape are both the same diameter of mail. They came from two different suppliers, and the one was just flattened more. If I could get anything I wanted, I would have the rings for the collar made of heavier wire, so that the resulting mail would be much denser and stiffer.

The collar per se is a rectangular strip, because it is intended to fit around the neck; a thing which is fundamentally cylindrical.

The hollow of the throat is made of the same stuff. There is an expansion in the center, because it needs to begin to flair over the top of the chest.

The mail for the cape is attached quite normally. It is made of four pieces. The two fronts have a "45degree" expansion on each end, and their upper edges are notched to accept the hollow-of-the -throat mail of the collar. The two expansions of the front center are knitted together. This makes the front center quite pointy.

The two back pieces each have a "45degree" expansion on one end. These will come together at the back opening. Over each shoulder, the expansions from the front cape pieces join the "straight grain" ends of the back cape pieces.

In summary, the cape has a total of six "45degree" expansions. Looked at in another way; there are a total of six "idle rings" in every other row. This is what it takes to make a circular piece of mail lay flat. This is what is required of a thing that is going to lay flat on a person's shoulders.

I hope this is useful. As I said before, I can diagram it out is there is any interest.


Mac

[Mac]

Audax,

Is the above more like the answer you were looking for?...Or am I still not getting it?

Mac

[Tom B.]

If anyone is interested, I can sketch out the pattern, either in general, or with ring counts.

Mac

I would be very grateful.
Ring counts would be most helpful.

What do you think of my idea to do the collar out of Andre's 6mm flat and the cape out of his 6mm round? I have not seen these links side by side to get a feel for how much more dense the 6mm flat looks.

Thanks,
Tom

[Mac]

Tom,

I'll try to sketch something up later today.

I think that using flat rings for the collar and round rings for the cape will give a better visual impression than using the same rings throughout. Again, it would be great if we could get some really dense mail...say, buy the yard. It would not even really mater if the ring size was not the same as the stuff for the cape. You can always figure out a way to marry them together. Real mail is frequently sort of "catch as catch" can when two different "fabrics" are used in the same defense. As long as it there are no big "holes" or "knots" where the two are joined, it doesn't really matter whether or not each ring goes through exactly four others.

Mac

[Tom B.]

I'll try to sketch something up later today.

Could you give a little more detail on the spring steel dog collar?
Would this simply be two rectangles bent, hinged, and latched or should it be more complicated?
Perhaps a curved shape like the better leather dog collar SCA gorgets?

Thanks,
Tom

[audax]

Audax,

OK, I have had a few hours to think about this. Is is that you are asking how a mail standard would be attached to, or integrated with a rigid of semi rigid defense, in order to make it SCA legal?

I would make a spring steel "dog collar" that hinged in the front, and closed in back with a low profile catch. The steel collar would go between the mail and the lining. Thus, you could wear the mail with, or without the rigid defense, depending upon the venue.

Sorry for the confusion....

Mac

Thank you, that was what I was looking for. Trying to raise the bar in my harness and I think a mail standard will help that.

[Mac]

Audax,

Pleased to be on assistance.

Mac

[Mac]

Tom,

Here are some diagrams that I hope will convey enough information about the structure of the standard.

The first shows it as if it were reduced to its component parts. The ring counts are approximate....mail is never accurate to the last ring.



The second shows the location of all the "idle rings". Each of these is going through five of its neighbors, to produce expansion.



The last is a perspective view. It shows the cape flat on a plane, and the collar standing up. Please note that I was in error in my earlier post about the cape. It should be 270 degrees of a circle, and not the 360 I suggested. It had been several years, and I misremembered.



Mac

[Mac]

Could you give a little more detail on the spring steel dog collar?
Would this simply be two rectangles bent, hinged, and latched or should it be more complicated?
Perhaps a curved shape like the better leather dog collar SCA gorgets?

Thanks,
Tom

Here is a collar from my "land of lost projects"; please forgive the rust. It is made of 1050 and hardened to a spring temper. It is a bit tall on me, but you will get the idea. If you were going to use a thing like this with the mail standard we have been discussing, you would want to make the opening in the back.

















I hope this is helpfully to you. Please ask, if I can clarify anything.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Tom,

Here are some diagrams that I hope will convey enough information about the structure of the standard.

The first shows it as if it were reduced to its component parts. The ring counts are approximate....mail is never accurate to the last ring.

The last is a perspective view. It shows the cape flat on a plane, and the collar standing up. Please note that I was in error in my earlier post about the cape. It should be 270 degrees of a circle, and not the 360 I suggested. It had been several years, and I misremembered.
Mac

Thanks for the information.
I should be able to complete the cape portion during my trip.
I still need to source the 6mm flat rings I hope to use for the collar portion.

I do have a few questions: (I understand that the the ring counts are approximate)
It looks like you were using 12.5 mm rings, making the collar about 26" if stretched out and the outer perimeter 53" again stretched.
Obviously we don't want it stretched when worn.
So how does the 26" compare to the actual measurement of the neck + padding / liner?
If I need to make the diameter bigger the ring count on the rectangle is easy but for the cape do I just delete top rows and add bottom rows so to speak?

I plan on making the cape portions separately with a ring count about 2X (12.5/6 = 2.08333) what you showed and then checking fit and adjusting as required.

Thanks,
Tom

[Mac]

Tom,

Yes, the rings I used are 12.5mm

I just went and measured the standard. The collar measures 21inches, pulled tight. I expect it to overlap an inch or so when it is buckled on.

You will want the mail collar to be snug around whatever padding and or plate you intend to wear under it.

The length of the lower edge of the cape is about 47. this length is not really important, though. If you use the same "expansion program" it will still fit the same, regardless of the length (and thus the circumference) of the cape. Frankly, If I were making this one over again, I would probably not make the cape quite so long.


Just for the sake of comparison, I pulled the standard over that steel gorget, and it was about an inch or so shy of meeting. I would recommend that you plan out and construct whatever you intend to wear the mail over. this will tell you for sure how long the collar strop has to be. That measurement drives all the other work, since it must fit onto the collar.

Mac

[Tom B.]

I would recommend that you plan out and construct whatever you intend to wear the mail over. this will tell you for sure how long the collar strop has to be. That measurement drives all the other work, since it must fit onto the collar.

Mac

That was my guess.
Unfortunately I will not be able to get this done before my afore mentioned trip to China.
With 5 kids at home I must take advantage of the 16 hours each way on the plane.
I plan on making the cape sections & mail collar to my estimated sizes but not join them together until I have the steel plate collar made. That way I can have the bulk of the mail work done.

Thanks,
Tom