A better riveted mail standard, ideas? (now competed w/pics)

[Johann ColdIron]

Here is a collar from my "land of lost projects"; please forgive the rust. It is made of 1050 and hardened to a spring temper. It is a bit tall on me, but you will get the idea. If you were going to use a thing like this with the mail standard we have been discussing, you would want to make the opening in the back.

Mac

Nice tight rolls! Cool project in itself for anyone wanting a non gorget looking gorget. It would hide under any high collared cloth overlayer.

[Mac]

Thank you, Johan.

Mac

[Paladin74]

For my understanding, is the mail standard in order to hide a gorget, or to preclude the use of a coif?

[Mac]

Paladin,

The reason for a mail standard is to protect the neck. That was why they were worn in period. Conveniently, however, they can provide an authentic looking covering for the sort of rigid neck protection that is required in modern tournaments.

Mac

[audax]

This is a most excellent thread.

[Tom B.]

Not sure how well the 7" pliers are going to work.
Does not seem to be enough leverage.
I still have a couple of days to find something that works.
I hope to find something with compound leverage that I can adapt without too much work.

I probably can at least pack my stuff in my checked bag and can work on it in my hotel at night.

Tom

[Tom B.]

Something like this that I could modify would be great. I am not sure if they will close enough to set the rivet if I grind flats in the jaws to drill the rivet sets in. I also would have to shorted the handles so the overall length is 7" or less. If I don't find a solution in time for this trip at least I can take my time and get something that works for my next trip. I usually make 3-5 trips a year to China.

Tom

[Tom B.]

These copy vise grips may work!

I may by a couple of things tomorrow and see what I can get to work.

Tom

[Alec]

I absolutely love Mac's steel collar with its vent holes. I have tried a slightly different approach for SCA use. Its less accurate in that it puts the closure in the front, but I have found it pretty convenient. The protection itself in build into the arming coat collar itself -- just rows of 3" (or so) long spring steel plates sewn onto a backing. So the neck armour goes on with the coat. Just a different approach.

[markhale]

Yes...but look how badly it fits. There is not enough expansion to allow it close in the back, and there is no "collar".It's not hard to make them correctly. I will try to post some pics of a standard I made.
Mac

Just spotted the post and thought would drop in and comment, afraid the image on my site of the maille laid flat, does not really do it justice as it can be made to close at the back, depending on neck size of course for our standard off the shelf ones, although like all our products we offer full custom work.

Granted this one doesn't have a collar but as Jonathon points out there is the question of having enough of a market to justify this as a standard stock item. Certainly the addition of the leather collar does help to provide this in some respects and keep the costs down.

For info we have actually done a standard with collar like the one you show, although we went a little further, after having seen the original, which had smaller size rings on the collar, I would certainly suggest this approach for a more authentic look. 9mm, 8mm and 7mm works well.

It's certainly great to see that people are looking to go beyond standard stock items, our full tailoring services with coif integration to shirts, mittens and even ventails on coifs is starting to prove rather popular. From the onset all our shirts have had tapered sleeves. Anyway don't want this to be thought of as a sales post but I do like to correct any misunderstandings.

Regards

Mark

http://www.capapie.co.uk

[Mac]

Mark,

Please forgive me the somewhat harsh sound of my post, which you quote. I try to write more politely, but sometimes I slip. Mea culpa.

Let me try to appeal to you as a supplier of mail. If you *know* how to do it right, then by all means, *do* it right, and make the product available. Most people can not tell a well-fitted mail product from a poorly-fitted one because they have never seen, much less worn a good one. Let them see the difference! Give them a chance to buy something that really fits! Charge what you have to charge, but make the good stuff available. Once they see what a difference it makes, the market for better stuff will expand.

I spent over thirty years making plate armor that was two or three cuts above the market average. I never found a lack of customers. Build it and they will come.

Mac

[Mac]

Mark,

Look for a PM and an Email

Mac

[Tom B.]

Build it and they will come.

Mac

Mac is right.

Quick update on my project.
I did not get much don on my last trip to China but I will have another chance next month.

I have sourced my 6mm flat rings and have resized MAC's pattern for my neck and smaller 6mm rings.
Still need airline sized riveting tools.

Might buy some 6mm flat brass rings from Mark to trim the edge.

Tom

[markhale]

No problem Mac hazards of type LOL

But yes we are offering custom work alongside the more off the shelf items, and whilst it would be nice to see everyone in tailored maille, not everyone wants to go that little bit further, very much like custom plate, which we all know is the way to go vs "off the shelf" plate armour which will at least get you into the hobby and on the field.

One thing I will say is that our service does at least show people what is achievable and even if we don't get direct work 100% of the time, we are finding that people are buying the supplies for DIY. So at least it does allow for the bar to be raised that little bit higher which can't be a bad thing.

And Tom - the 6mm brass is very nice, even though I do say so myself LOL. Proved rather popular at the moment but more on its way....

Cheers

Mark

http://www.capapie.co.uk

[Oskar der Drachen]

'Pologies for the Bump, this is my current project and I wanted to keep it near the top to find it again... Sweet job on the projects listed here!

[Theo]

The last one I did was basically a collar of mail, with two trapezoids of mail attached to it with a 45 degree seam linking the two in front. Then, I added enough mail to the back so that the edges of it were diagonal. Hope that makes sense, I'm typing this from my phone and do have pictures of the thing laid out.

Here's two pics I already have online:

[Konstantin the Red]

Worthy revival of a worthy thread, ladies and gentlemen; Vivat, Vivat, Vivunt and all that.

[Tom B.]

'Pologies for the Bump, this is my current project and I wanted to keep it near the top to find it again... Sweet job on the projects listed here!

No problem.
It has been almost 1 year and my progress has been very small.
I will be placing an order for some brass 6mm flat rings soon.
Just need to estimate how many I need for my various projects and make the order.

Tom

[Tostig]

Tom B. Could you carry a couple of small pipes to slide over the plier's handles for better leverage?

[Tom B.]

Finally getting back to this after more than a year.
Doing some shaping on my hidden neck protection to hide under the standard.
I am repurposing using some 18 gauge stainless pieces to make back of the neck and upper spine coverage that will be hidden under the standard.
In the front my bevor will set over the standard and fulfills the rigid protection requirement.

I found a nice set of pliers to modify for my TSA friendly mail kit.
I am hoping that the compound lever action will allow for sufficient force even after the handles are shortened by 1" to meet the TSA requirements.

[Tom B.]

Here is a shot of the two ring styles i will be using.
Both from Icefalcon.
6mm round ring on the left and 6mm flat ring on the right (the one on the right has not been cleaned yet).

[Tom B.]

I finally got back to this project this week.
Here are the progress photos.

Here is the "neck band" laid flat and stretched out.



It is made from 6mm flat rings with pin rivets.


Here is a shot showing the un cleaned 6mm flat ring "neck band" next to the in progress 6mm round ring "cape" part of the standard.

[Tom B.]

More progress.

[Tom B.]

It has been a while since I have messed with mail.
Anybody have a good tutorial for joining a 90 degree end to a 45?
Like I need to do on the left part of the "cape" in the pic posted above.

[Konstantin the Red]

In that case, I wouldn't do that, but would instead move the trapezoid out to where the beginning of the 45-degree slope would meet the end of the neckband strip, filling in the gap with more mail. Alternatively, cut the neckband back if you've got extra and it'll still fit as you want.

[Tom B.]

In that case, I wouldn't do that, but would instead move the trapezoid out to where the beginning of the 45-degree slope would meet the end of the neckband strip, filling in the gap with more mail. Alternatively, cut the neckband back if you've got extra and it'll still fit as you want.

Sorry I was not clear with my question.
I am talking about where I need to join the two "cape" sections together.
One has a straight end and the other has a 45.

[Konstantin the Red]

Ah, the other end. Use a 45-degree join method -- both edges don't have to slope; it's all in what you do with the line of links you're zipping the pieces together with.

Two such slopes, one for either side of the seam, would give you a mitered join like a picture frame, adding up to a 90 degree bend in the linkrows' trace.

I would want to be quite sure the top edges of both pieces both have the same link-lie -- that they angle in the same direction. That way there's no discontinuity to wrestle with.

[Tom B.]

Ah, the other end. Use a 45-degree join method -- both edges don't have to slope; it's all in what you do with the line of links you're zipping the pieces together with.

Two such slopes, one for either side of the seam, would give you a mitered join like a picture frame, adding up to a 90 degree bend in the linkrows' trace.

I would want to be quite sure the top edges of both pieces both have the same link-lie -- that they angle in the same direction. That way there's no discontinuity to wrestle with.

Thanks,
I hoped it was the same as joining two 45's, I have done that before.

I am generally following the design that Mac posted on page one of this thread.

The smaller "cape" piece needs a few more rows on the top to match up with the larger piece's height.
I also have quite a bit to add to the "cape" on the right side.
If I have enough 6mm flat links left I will also put in the small re-enforced areas at the front of the cape.
Then I will trim one end of the neck band square and start joining it to the cape.
The neck band should be a bit longer than I need so it will get trimmed.

Don't worry about the link lie, I understand that.

[Konstantin the Red]

Right on; you never know what some guy might have missed.

This very month I discovered there are veteran armor toters who have never done anything with mail ever, except look at it. Maybe I was just lucky down there in Tir Ysgithr... seemed they were making at least one article of mail at all times. You got real used to fiddling about with wire and pliers, and you could often enough cumshaw somebody's leftovers if he wasn't going to use them.

[Tom B.]

It is definitely a good thing to point out before the work is done.
There are some guys in India that I wish knew about matching up the ring slopes before joining pieces.

I did not have much time today so far but I was able to figure out how I want to join the two pieces and have 3 or 4 rows joined.
Having the rings 50% punched solid makes some things easier and some things harder.

I should be able to join these pieces up pretty quickly then move on to extending the cape to the full length on the other side.

[Tom B.]

I will have enough of the 6mm flat rings for the small sections on the front of the cape ( see Mac's pics and sketches)

I am probably 30-40% done with the prototype for my hidden gorget.
It is made from 0.040" thick 4130.
Fired up my small portable electric kiln & have my test squares of the 4130 heat treated and ready for evaluation.

[Halberds]

Thanks for the pics Mac, I was wearing mine backwards. [Doh]

[Konstantin the Red]

OT: if scrimshaw is an art form practiced by a scrimshander, is cumshaw an art practiced by a cumshander...?

[Tom B.]

Probably at about 90% complete with the prototype of a hidden gorget made from 0.04" thick 4130.
It is based off of the one Mac posted but hinges at the front center and closes in the back.

Remaining work items:
1. Need to finish knitting the mail pieces together.
2. Install quilted linen padding by stitching to leather edging at top.
3. Install buckles and hooks
4. Wear it to Days of Knights.

[Kalle Ommer]

Probably at about 90% complete with the prototype of a hidden gorget made from 0.04" thick 4130.
It is based off of the one Mac posted but hinges at the front center and closes in the back.

Remaining work items:
1. Need to finish knitting the mail pieces together.
2. Install quilted linen padding by stitching to leather edging at top.
3. Install buckles and hooks
4. Wear it to Days of Knights.

Hallo Tom,

did you finish this project?